Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, April 10 2009 Volume 13 : Number 205 In this issue: A Response from Michael Ignatieff ... My response to Mr. Ignatieff ... Fwd: Scrap the gun Reg Michael Ignatieff, M.P. "We will not sacrifice public safety by Re: Current observations Re: "I still say something's amiss" Re: "We don' need no steenkin' FACs, PALs, ATTs, ...." Re: Today's CNN POLL Re: Current observations RE: An MRI in every hospital is a worthy aim RE: Current observations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:21:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: A Response from Michael Ignatieff ... Re: Firearms Registry (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:11:53 -0400 From: "Ignatieff, Michael - M.P." Subject: Re: Firearms Registry Dear Sir/Madam: Thank you for writing to share your thoughts on recent Conservative legislation dealing with the Canadian Firearms Registry. The Liberal Party of Canada respects the fact that there are many Canadians ? hunters, sportsmen and collectors ? who are frustrated with the current registry. We have heard from legitimate and lawful gun owners and we agree that the registration requirement needs to be easier and streamlined. But that is far different from completely gutting the registry, as the Conservatives wish to do. We will not sacrifice public safety by removing the registration requirements for firearms. Unlike the Harper Conservatives who are trying to use this issue as a political wedge to divide urban and rural Canadians for their own political advantage, we look to the facts: the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association both support the registry as being an essential public safety tool. They rightfully point out that all types of gun deaths ? homicide, suicide and accidents ? have declined since the registry was brought into force and that the registry itself is accessed more than 9,000 times a day by police forces across Canada. It is used to enforce prohibition orders and to keep officers safe. Approximately 15,965 firearms licenses have been refused or revoked since the Firearms Act came into force, and more than 5,000 affidavits have been provided by the Canadian Firearms Registry to support the prosecution of firearms-related crime and court proceedings across the country. Those are the facts. This is why we continue to oppose the kind of legislation being pushed by the Conservative government. Conservative MP Gary Breitkreuz?s Bill C-301, for example, would actually allow fully automatic weapons to be driven through residential neighbourhoods ? something that has been illegal for more than a decade. The bill would also gut the registry on prohibited and restricted weapons. This bill is broadly opposed by every major group and association involved in promoting public safety. We want to work with lawful, legitimate gun owners to make the registry better for everyone ? but we categorically refuse to go along with any plan to get rid of it. We welcome your ideas and comments on how to improve the registry and thank you for taking the time to write. Sincerely, The Office of Michael Ignatieff, M.P. Leader of the Opposition ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:46:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: My response to Mr. Ignatieff ... Re: Firearms Registry (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, I thank you for your reply. I must, however take issue when you state the following: "Conservative MP Gary Breitkreuz?s Bill C-301, for example, would actually allow fully automatic weapons to be driven through residential neighbourhoods something that has been illegal for more than a decade. The bill would also gut the registry on prohibited and restricted weapons." I am fully versed with the current laws, as I am affected by them, and I am well aware of what Bill C-301 proposes. There is nothing which prohibits "fully automatic" weapons from being driven through neighbourhoods today, but safe transport regulations require that they are locked in a container, also with a trigger lock (or disassembled), and the ammunition is kept separate. C-301 will not change that, and I see no issue with respect to the public safety in dropping the ATT regulations. Moreover, the cost savings would be substantial. Your arguments and the current regulations imply criminal intent of law abiding citizens (counter to the presumption of innocence section in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms), already vetted and licensed to own the firearms in question. This implies that your government, like your predecessors who implemented the Canadian Firearms Act will continue to act in bad faith, and fail to differentiate between law abiding citizens and criminals. I find this a huge disappointment, Sir, as I had hoped that a man of your purported integrity and intelligence would be able to separate truly useful regulations from political spin, and the expensive and wasteful measures which seem to constitute the preponderance of the Firearms Act as drafted by your peers. With all due respect I see that you are *NOT* the man I had thought you were, and should you be elected I will expect nothing more than the continued shabby treatment for law abiding sports men and women which was demonstrated by Liberal governments past. Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:49:37 -0400 From: br8boss@xcelco.on.ca Subject: Fwd: Scrap the gun Reg http://www.scrapthelonggunregistry.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 21:14:33 -0600 (CST) From: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca (Majordomo) Subject: Michael Ignatieff, M.P. "We will not sacrifice public safety by removing the registration requirements for firearms." From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Date: Thu, April 9, 2009 6:10 pm To: "Firearms Digest" Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca From: "Ignatieff, Michael - M.P." Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 2:11:53 PM Subject: Re: Firearms Registry Dear Sir/Madam: Thank you for writing to share your thoughts on recent Conservative legislation dealing with the Canadian Firearms Registry. The Liberal Party of Canada respects the fact that there are many Canadians - - hunters, sportsmen and collectors - who are frustrated with the current registry. We have heard from legitimate and lawful gun owners and we agree that the registration requirement needs to be easier and streamlined. But that is far different from completely gutting the registry, as the Conservatives wish to do. We will not sacrifice public safety by removing the registration requirements for firearms. Unlike the Harper Conservatives who are trying to use this issue as a political wedge to divide urban and rural Canadians for their own political advantage, we look to the facts: the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association both support the registry as being an essential public safety tool. They rightfully point out that all types of gun deaths - homicide, suicide and accidents - have declined since the registry was brought into force and that the registry itself is accessed more than 9,000 times a day by police forces across Canada. It is used to enforce prohibition orders and to keep officers safe. Approximately 15,965 firearms licenses have been refused or revoked since the Firearms Act came into force, and more than 5,000 affidavits have been provided by the Canadian Firearms Registry to support the prosecution of firearms-related crime and court proceedings across the country. Those are the facts. This is why we continue to oppose the kind of legislation being pushed by the Conservative government. Conservative MP Gary Breitkreuz's Bill C-301, for example, would actually allow fully automatic weapons to be driven through residential neighbourhoods - something that has been illegal for more than a decade. The bill would also gut the registry on prohibited and restricted weapons. This bill is broadly opposed by every major group and association involved in promoting public safety. We want to work with lawful, legitimate gun owners to make the registry better for everyone - but we categorically refuse to go along with any plan to get rid of it. We welcome your ideas and comments on how to improve the registry and thank you for taking the time to write. Sincerely, The Office of Michael Ignatieff, M.P. Leader of the Opposition ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:25:41 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Current observations Sage commentary, Clive. > From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> > Subject: Current observations > > I'm respectful of prof. Al Dorans Fed Up ll Rally, Sept. 22/98. One of > the best things from that rally, was seeing the "Volunteers", and their > successful activity, working together! I recall that many who had never protested about anything in their entire life, and even those who had protested about various other things, , , looked around and said, ""WOW: WE DID IT!!!!!!"" Many were over-awed with the attention we'd gained and rightfully insulted by the snipers on the roof-tops. The long march up on to the Hill was majestic. Feeling the energy from the gathered thousands was infectious. The featured speakers. Many more politically active folk (especially via the CFD and such) actively looked for 'contacts' in the throng. For one, I was immensely gratified to meet our long serving colleague Dennis Young. From down my way, a local chap, Brad Beaudoin of the EESA near Aylmer, declared, "I'm gonna charter a bus; we're going to Ottawa." Until the last few days prior to departure, it looked like he was in pretty deep for the charter until we harangued enough folk to fill the bus. One devoted and committed RFC lady on our bus, like many, wasn't dressed for the cool, raw wind and seeing her shivering uncontrollably I dug into my backpack for a spare wind-jacket. To this day, she gives me a big smile and thanks me for that consideration. For years, I reported on the Fed Up II sign at the S/W corner of the 401 and James Snow Expressway until it was replaced by upscale housing. For so many reasons, a while back, I suggested we do it again. Same place; different message!! ****We "re-frame" our distaste for compromising governments of all descriptions. We need a 'delicate and poignant' message that is apt for the time.***** For some history: > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:40:14 -0600 > From: Al Dorans > Subject: FED UP II Rally: Bulletin #43 > > Dear Firearms Owner, January 16, 1999 Bulletin #43 Despite what you may have read in the media, the largest political protest rally in the history of Canada jolted federal politicians. On September 22, 1998, more than 30,000 law-abiding firearms owners traveled to Ottawa from every region in this country, on a workday and in the rain, to vent their intense opposition to Bill C-68 and the unscrupulous politicians who forced it down their throats. The demonstrators were joined in spirit by an additional 40,000 gun owners who were unable to attend. They did, however, sign proxy postcards expressing their common anger with this needless, wasteful and ineffective gun legislation. In addition, 41,000 Canadian voters signed the Repeal C-68 petition initiated by Reform M. P. Garry Breitkreuz. In another historical precedent, 1500 French and English firearms associations, wildlife federations and business organizations stood united in their demand for the repeal of Bill C-68. Contrary to Liberal spin-doctoring and an anti-gun media, it was obvious to any unbiased observer that Canada's firearms community was growing significantly stronger, not weaker. From the same CFD: > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:27:31 -0600 > From: David A Tomlinson > Subject: Re: [alert] Supreme Court Challenge And right on for Dave; interesting how things eventually come around. > Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:38:56 -0300 From: Al Muir Subject: Re: "I still say something's amiss" > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:02:09 -0400 > From: "ed machel" > Subject: Re: "I still say something's amiss" > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Muir" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:37 PM > Subject: Re: "I still say something's amiss" > > >>> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:07:30 -0700 >>> From: "Todd Birch" >>> Subject: re: "I still say something's amiss" >>> >>> Ed >>> And we stand back, wringing our hands decrying the injustice of it all >>> and >>> reminiscening about the 'good ol' days' when men were men, the buffalo >>> roamed and women were double breasted - "We don' need no steenkin' FACS, >>> PALs, ATTs .....". >> >> I know I do not want a PAL. I know Rob wants relaxed ATT's and I do not >> have a problem with that. I know of no one on this forum that will not >> reluctantly tolerate an FAC (don't know where you keep getting that one). >> >> Perhaps you could tell us what you would like to accomplish regarding >> gun >> laws. You like FAC's, PAL's and ATT's ? >> >> Al > > Al~! you should know by now that I dont like any of this bull effluent. Ed the question was directed at Todd so I had not given any thought to what you personally would like to accomplish. That is not to say I have a problem hearing it. > AS A MATTER OF FACT WHEN LICENSING WAS FIRST PROPOSED I WAS DEAD SET > AGAINST > IT AND WROTE THE OFAH DECRYING THE NONSENSE OF IT WHEN THE OFAH WAS ALL > FOR > IT. Then I suppose you did not support their poll that hopes to see the passage of S-5. Why I would suppose anything from most on this forum I do not know. > As far as these are concerned /?FAC's, PAL's and ATT's,Do I like them???, > in > a word NO~! Ed I can only suggest that if you do not support them then stop supporting them. > So what we have is a pause, if you will ,?before the storm (troopers) > descend on us , and that pause is registration, FAC`S,PAL`S, AND ATT`S. > Whether we like it or not we are stuck with it. So whatever pause they throw up next we support them like we have since they were elected. OOOOOK! > The CPC is as two faced as the Lieberals when it comes to legal > gun-ownership Then stop treating them as if they were not. Al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:43:13 -0300 From: Al Muir Subject: Re: "We don' need no steenkin' FACs, PALs, ATTs, ...." > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:17:52 -0700 > From: "Todd Birch" > Subject: re: "We don' need no steenkin' FACs, PALs, ATTs, ...." > > Al > > I was bitterly opposed to the implementation of FACs, but like today's > generation, I accepted handgun registration because it was long > established. > There were all kinds of war souvenir pistols floating around, inherited > from > family members. I remember long gun owners who could quite happily have > lived with a ban on them at the time. It was an uphill fight to get IPSC > established and get clubs willing to accept it as a shooting sport. > The majority of gun owners simply shrugged, rolled over and applied for an > FAC. One of the reasons I owned the MP40 that got my ass in court was in > defiance of what I regarded as an unwarranted and unnecesssary intrusion. > The Sterling 9mm SMG had been my issue weapon in the Signal Corps for 12 > years and was a piece of crap compared to the MP40; the ultimate 'kewl' > SMG. > > Then all the other steps were implemented as the heat was turned up; the > frog in the beaker on the Busen burner analogy. > A string of bills - C-68, C-17 ...... , one successive government after > the > other, reinforcing and strengthening what the previous gov't had > implemented. My time line gets a little skewed here, as it was just a blur > of non-stop anti-gun inititatives as we all struggled with them while > making > a living, raising kids, while trying to keep and enjoy our guns. > > Again, long suffering, law-abiding gun owners rolled over and got in line > for PALs/POLs. Then the grandfathering of less than 4" barreled handguns, > the banning of .25s, .32s, the prohibition of FN FALs and other "bad & > black" guns, etc. It was lose-lose-lose. > > A lot of AOBs went undergound with their guns, leaving their wives with > some > sticky problems when they died off, victims of slick 'gun dealers', some > of > whom were less than scrupulous in aiding these women. Uninterested and > unlicenced, many widows simply called up the police and surrendered the > arms, taking advantage of 'amnesties'. I know where some of those guns > went. > There was a little grumbling from the AOBs, (many of them subscribers to > this forum - Hi Med!), the 'Fed Up' rallies, the abortive and short lived > LUFA, the NFA, CSSA, CILA issues, a lot of letter writing, faxes, etc., to > bring us to where we are today. > > And where is that? We have many more erudite, educated and effective > activists than ever before. We have forums like this. > I wonder what difference it might have made had we been computer literates > way back when? Gun owners are more politically aware and involved than > ever. > There is something to be said for having your back to the wall and the > examples of Britain and Australia and New Zealand as motivators. > > Do I think we will see a return to the 'good ol' post-Magna Carta, > pre-FAC, > post-FAC, pre-ATT eras? Yes - when I look out my window and see the > buffalo > roaming in their millions. Do I know what to do to change the status quo? > No > more than I know what to do to change the institution of our disfunctional > 1867 parliamentary system. If I did, I would be doing it instead of > sitting > here looking out the window for the return of the buffalo. I guess that clears it up. I had thought you were talking about others on the forum but after reading what you wrote above it appears you were talking about yourself. Al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:47:22 -0300 From: Al Muir Subject: Re: Today's CNN POLL And you voted Green in the last election? Lucky me, I just bought another case of bottles of aspirin. Al > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 12:43:43 -0600 > From: "Med Crotteau" > Subject: Re: Today's CNN POLL > > YES !!!!! > Med > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Muir" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 7:52 AM > Subject: Re: Today's CNN POLL > >>> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:04:10 -0600 >>> From: "Med Crotteau" >>> Subject: Today's CNN POLL >>> I'm glad there is this forum in which we can talk, and i participated on >>> the OFAH Poll, that was posted today! "Without Canadian Firearms >>> Digest", >>> i wouldn't even have known about the Poll! The Poll had a Member >>> Association, and i noticed that the BC Wildlife Fed., was not listed, >>> unlike Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and others. I don't recognize >>> some names, as i'm not Educated about the rest of Canada. I'm still >>> upset >>> with Tony's response, ( BCWF ) when i asked him to Participate in >>> Fighting >>> Gun Registration, in Canada. He said No. I well remember the Richmond >>> Rod & Gun Club, in BC, capitulation. > >> Let me get this strait Med. You voted in that OFAH poll? > >> Al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:56:11 -0300 From: Al Muir Subject: Re: Current observations > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:15:04 -0700 > From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> > Subject: Current observations > SCRAP THE FIREARMS ACT > > If Harper refuses to support at least an unamended C-301 then that will > be proof that political pressure alone is not sufficient to achieve our > goals. The next logical step is civil disobedience, and it needs to be > on a massive scale. Clive is it " SCRAP THE FIREARMS ACT" or support C-301? Are you or the NFA ever going to make up your minds? It is little wonder that political pressure is not sufficient when so many have declined to exert it. Will more than a day late and more than a dollar short do the job? Al ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:20:03 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: RE: An MRI in every hospital is a worthy aim Picky, picky, picky: Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca > Subject: RE: An MRI in every hospital is a worthy aim > > That is NOT an oldie from 1995. There was no "LONG-GUN REGISTRY" in our > vocabulary back then. It may not have been in your's, but it sure was one of the things stuck in the craw among informed policos in Upper Canada. I personally used the line myself in my briefs to the H of C and Senate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:53:42 -0700 From: "RFOCBC" Subject: RE: Current observations "In addition, 41,000 Canadian voters signed the Repeal C-68 petition initiated by Reform M. P. Garry Breitkreuz. In another historical precedent, 1500 French and English firearms associations, wildlife federations and business organizations stood united in their demand for the repeal of Bill C-68." Ah yes, read that sentence in Doran's post slowly: "REPEAL C-68" was the message. Now it's "Repeal the LONG-GUN REGISTRY". I still agree with the original message - not the chimera that ridding us of Registration will solve our problems. Kevin - -----Original Message----- From: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca [mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca]On Behalf Of Lee Jasper Sent: April 9, 2009 8:26 PM To: Canadian Firearms Digest Subject: Re: Current observations Sage commentary, Clive. > From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> > Subject: Current observations > > I'm respectful of prof. Al Dorans Fed Up ll Rally, Sept. 22/98. One of > the best things from that rally, was seeing the "Volunteers", and their > successful activity, working together! I recall that many who had never protested about anything in their entire life, and even those who had protested about various other things, , , looked around and said, ""WOW: WE DID IT!!!!!!"" Many were over-awed with the attention we'd gained and rightfully insulted by the snipers on the roof-tops. The long march up on to the Hill was majestic. Feeling the energy from the gathered thousands was infectious. The featured speakers. Many more politically active folk (especially via the CFD and such) actively looked for 'contacts' in the throng. For one, I was immensely gratified to meet our long serving colleague Dennis Young. From down my way, a local chap, Brad Beaudoin of the EESA near Aylmer, declared, "I'm gonna charter a bus; we're going to Ottawa." Until the last few days prior to departure, it looked like he was in pretty deep for the charter until we harangued enough folk to fill the bus. One devoted and committed RFC lady on our bus, like many, wasn't dressed for the cool, raw wind and seeing her shivering uncontrollably I dug into my backpack for a spare wind-jacket. To this day, she gives me a big smile and thanks me for that consideration. For years, I reported on the Fed Up II sign at the S/W corner of the 401 and James Snow Expressway until it was replaced by upscale housing. For so many reasons, a while back, I suggested we do it again. Same place; different message!! ****We "re-frame" our distaste for compromising governments of all descriptions. We need a 'delicate and poignant' message that is apt for the time.***** For some history: > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:40:14 -0600 > From: Al Dorans > Subject: FED UP II Rally: Bulletin #43 > > Dear Firearms Owner, January 16, 1999 Bulletin #43 Despite what you may have read in the media, the largest political protest rally in the history of Canada jolted federal politicians. On September 22, 1998, more than 30,000 law-abiding firearms owners traveled to Ottawa from every region in this country, on a workday and in the rain, to vent their intense opposition to Bill C-68 and the unscrupulous politicians who forced it down their throats. The demonstrators were joined in spirit by an additional 40,000 gun owners who were unable to attend. They did, however, sign proxy postcards expressing their common anger with this needless, wasteful and ineffective gun legislation. In addition, 41,000 Canadian voters signed the Repeal C-68 petition initiated by Reform M. P. Garry Breitkreuz. In another historical precedent, 1500 French and English firearms associations, wildlife federations and business organizations stood united in their demand for the repeal of Bill C-68. Contrary to Liberal spin-doctoring and an anti-gun media, it was obvious to any unbiased observer that Canada's firearms community was growing significantly stronger, not weaker. From the same CFD: > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:27:31 -0600 > From: David A Tomlinson > Subject: Re: [alert] Supreme Court Challenge And right on for Dave; interesting how things eventually come around. > Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #205 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)