Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, October 23 2009 Volume 13 : Number 502 In this issue: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen Letter to Globe (just sent) Sherbrook Record - Over 100 firearms seized in raid ARNOLD VIOLATES HIS CITIZENSHIP PLEDGE email address Re: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen NatPost - Police Chief Bill Blair faces chill at Jane/Finch Re: Interesting concept DID YOU REALLY THINK IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN? Citizens Arrest and perverse justice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:29:35 +0000 From: Trigger Mortis Subject: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen TR was possibly the best ever US President. He was a great man. Alan Harper alan__harper@hotmail.com SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM ************************* > From: mred@295.ca > To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca > Subject: Re: News Durham - Teens charged after guns ammo stolen > Date: Thu 22 Oct 2009 17:10:31 -0400 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trigger Mortis" > To: > Sent: Wednesday=2C October 21=2C 2009 1:43 PM > Subject: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns ammo stolen > > > > "If you seek peace prepare for war" > > > > I have seen this quote from as far back as Roman Senate member Appius > > Claudius the Blind. > > > > To put it in current vernacular if you are ready willing and able to > > fight no one will pick a fight with you. > > > > Alan Harper > > > > alan__harper@hotmail.com > > > > SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM > > > > ************************* > ya Roosevelt had the same motto > only his was "talk softly and carry a big stick" different words same > meaning > ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:25:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: Letter to Globe (just sent) The thief, the vigilante, and a robbery of justice ... (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, In the late 1960's, when Canada's justice system was re-jigged to focus upon the rights of the accused, very few thought about the unintended consequences which lay ahead. Now, in the new millenium, the victim is accused, the accused is the victim, and the justice system has been reduced to a farcical perpetrator of a Kafkaesque joke upon us all. Canada's vision for a "just society" was never really much more than a throw away slogan mistaken for a policy, and a bad one at that. Perhaps it is time for a new slogan to re-define our misplaced values. Sincerely, Robert Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:50:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Sherbrook Record - Over 100 firearms seized in raid http://www.sherbrookerecord.com/content/view/305062/1/ Over 100 firearms seized in raid By Doug McCooeye Sherbrook Record 2009-10-19 A Sûreté du Québec (SQ) investigation led to the seizure of over 100 firearms and some 1,000 rounds of ammunition in two Montérégie-area homes on Thursday afternoon. The two residences that were searched were an apartment on William Street in Cowansville and a house with a garage in Saint-Armand and are owned by Stephen Rothen, a 42-year-old man of Swiss origin. Rothen faces a series of charges that include unauthorized possession of firearms, possession of restricted firearms, and unauthorized importation of firearms. Many of the guns in the Cowansville-resident's possession were restricted firearms, which are illegal to have without permission and/or where ammo is easily accessible. Many of the firearms were unregistered or not registered in Rothen's name, another offense. Officers from the Estrie regional SQ office are working in collaboration with investigators from the National Weapons Enforcement Support Team (NWEST) in this case. Both were part of the search team that raided the homes on Thursday afternoon. According to multiple media reports, police spent most of Friday at the Saint-Armand residence where the majority of the firearms were found. Many of the guns and ammo seem to have been imported from outside of Canada. The SQ has not confirmed whether Rothen is an arms dealer or part of an illegal guns-trade operation. Police have detained Rothen until his scheduled court appearance on Monday when he will face the charges that are being laid against him. Established in January 2001, NWEST is a firearms and weapons investigative unit that is part of the RCMP's National Police Service. It's stated mission is toœmake streets and communities across Canada safer by strengthening the ability of our law enforcement and criminal justice partners to combat the illegal smuggling and trafficking of illicit firearms and other weapons.€ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:02:25 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: ARNOLD VIOLATES HIS CITIZENSHIP PLEDGE October 22nd 2009 JPFO ALERT: ARNOLD VIOLATES HIS CITIZENSHIP PLEDGE When Arnold Schwarzenegger became a U S citizen he pledged to uphold the Constitution. He LIED, and recently signed Nazi era type legislation to control and register ammunition purchases. Please make sure that everyone you know, especially in California, gets a copy of our latest handbill to expose Arnold's traitorous activities. --- http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/freebies.htm We are a nation of immigrants, but Arnold has worn his welcome out. Now it's up to all gun owners to get this handbill out to every gun shop, gun show, and media outlet in California. We can hit hard with this. Pass it around to everyone you know and use the "intellectual ammunition" that JPFO is giving you! Learn more about Arnold's laws - see "Gun Control": Gateway to Tyranny - http://www.jpfo.net/filegen-a-m/gateway.htm This alert, on JPFO - http://www.jpfo.org/alerts03/alert20091022.htm The Liberty Crew Protecting you by creating solutions to destroy "gun control" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:15:03 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: email address Tony Katz, What is your email address? I thank you in advance. Yours in Tyranny, Joe Gingich White Fox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:24:30 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen He was a war monger....ed/on - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trigger Mortis" To: Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 2:29 AM Subject: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen > TR was possibly the best ever US President. He was a great man. > > Alan Harper > > alan__harper@hotmail.com > > SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM > ************************* >> From: mred@295.ca >> To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca >> Subject: Re: News Durham - Teens charged after guns ammo stolen >> Date: Thu 22 Oct 2009 17:10:31 -0400 > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Trigger Mortis" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday=2C October 21=2C 2009 1:43 PM >> Subject: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns ammo stolen >> >> > "If you seek peace prepare for war" >> > >> > I have seen this quote from as far back as Roman Senate member Appius >> > Claudius the Blind. >> > >> > To put it in current vernacular if you are ready willing and able to >> > fight no one will pick a fight with you. >> > >> > Alan Harper >> > >> > alan__harper@hotmail.com >> > >> > SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM >> > >> > ************************* >> ya Roosevelt had the same motto >> only his was "talk softly and carry a big stick" different words same >> meaning >> ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:40:33 -0400 From: TONY KATZ Subject: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns, ammo stolen nope just plain copper jackets the porpose was to wound not kill as a dead man is just one out of the fight but a wounded man requires one or two men to carry him to the rear and medical personel to care for him. > From: mred@295.ca > To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca > Subject: Re: News Durham - Teens charged after guns ammo stolen > Date: Thu 22 Oct 2009 09:05:53 -0400 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TONY KATZ" > To: > Sent: Tuesday October 20 2009 9:33 PM > Subject: RE: News Durham - Teens charged after guns ammo stolen > > the military do not use hollow-point ammo prohibited by the geneva > > conventions. > Are they DU coated though ? which is worse ? > ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:39:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: NatPost - Police Chief Bill Blair faces chill at Jane/Finch http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/10/22/peter-kuitenbrouwer-chief-faces-chill-at-jane-finch.aspx Police Chief Bill Blair faces chill at Jane/Finch Posted: October 21, 2009, 10:59 PM by Daniel Kaszor Peter Kuitenbrouwer Wearing a blue suit rather than his trademark uniform, and turning down the offer of a microphone in order to have a "conversation" with the audience, Chief Bill Blair of the Toronto Police reached out to the black community at a town hall in the Jane/Finch neighbourhood last night. He admitted that his police are "not all perfect. We still recruit them from the human race." And he even confessed his own shortcomings. "I've been a cop for 33 years in this city," he said. "In the course of my career I have had bias creep into my decision-making." But overall, he said, the 8,000 employees of Toronto Police are becoming more diverse and more sensitive people under his command, and have made great strides towards bias-free policing, "working with our community partners." But even Mr. Blair could not warm up the drafty room at the Jamaican Canadian Association, on Arrow Road in an industrial area near Highway 400 and Finch Avenue West, nor could his conciliatory tone soothe an audience of about 50 that does not hold a high opinion of his organization. "The police has two faces," thundered Leonard Reece, who works for the Young Advocates Youth Organization. "When the police chief goes to politicians he says there is a growing problem in the community. The police department is pushing this initiative to get hundreds of millions of dollars for enforcement. We have a bunch of power-drunk police officers wandering around the community." Mr. Reece then stormed out without waiting for the police chief's reply. Community groups organized this town hall to implement the recommendations of last year's Report on the Roots of Youth Violence, a $2-million study commissioned by the province and written by Roy McMurtry, the former chief justice, and Alvin Curling, a former Cabinet minister. That report said the conduct of youth who commit offences, "needs to be addressed - but not by isolating them as if they were part of an irredeemable outlaw class. To do so is to nurture, not address, the immediate risk factors." Mr. Blair said he put police into 52 Toronto schools precisely so students could develop positive lasting relationships with them. He said crime has dropped more in schools that have officers than those that do not. He also noted that police hired 150 youth from poor communities this summer, and "their pride has been transformed." But many in the audience, including several teachers, said the police are behaving as adversaries, both in schools and on the streets. Dennis Keshinro, a high school teacher at the York Regional School Board's Bayview Secondary School, told Mr. Blair that one day last year when he drove into Jane/Finch to volunteer at a school, an officer pulled him over. "I opened the door and he kicked the door back in," said Mr. Keshinro, who immigrated to Toronto 10 years ago from Nigeria. "I went to court, I challenged the ticket and the police officer never showed up." Mr. Blair said police have to be vigilant. "We have 1,500 people involved in drugs and gangs and violence. Their activities stigmatize hundreds of thousands." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:24:50 -0300 From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Re: Interesting concept I thought of it first! Here's a copy of an essay I wrote several years ago: > > > To the People of Canada > > Imagine, for a minute what kind of country Canada would be were the > provisions of Bill C-68 to be fully applied. I can imagine the > government introducing the following bill into the House of Commons in > the not-too-distant future. I wonder how those opposed to the > recreational use of firearms would react were the same rules they are > forcing the Law Abiding Firearms Community to live under were applied to > them? > > Here then is a new Bill: > > > Preamble > > The recently enacted Owners' Licensing portion of Bill C-68 has resulted > in the Canadian populace being divided into four groups: a) Those that > have firearms in their possession and have admitted it to the Government > by applying for a POL or PAL or by having a valid FAC; b) Those in > possession of firearms but whom have not applied for a POL or PAL and > whom have not got a valid FAC; c) Those who have a POL, PAL or valid FAC > but have no firearms; and d) Those who have neither possession of > firearms nor POL, PAL, or valid FAC. > > According to the Government's own numbers there are some 2.2 million > people in Canada possessing firearms. Of these some 1.8 million have > applied for a POL or PAL or have a valid FAC. There is quite a bit of > controversy about the accuracy of these numbers. Estimates of > recreational gun ownership range from 3 to 9 million, and most reputable > researchers place the number at about 5 million > > This means that of the four categories above one may estimate that > category a) comprises some 1.8 million; category b) has some 3.2 million > for recreational shooters and an unknown number of criminal shooters > (i.e. those whose sole purpose for owning firearms is to commit crimes > with them); category c) has likely very few members and may be > discounted for the purposes of this discussion; and category d) which > comprises somewhere between 20 and 25 million Canadians, including > children, the infirm, and the elderly. > > Because the law-abiding firearms owners in category a) have shown > themselves to be trustworthy by submitting to the stringent > requirements of Bill C-68, and have thereby voluntarily given up their > rights to Liberty, Property, Presumption of Innocence, Freedom From > Unwarranted Search and Seizure, and Freedom From Self Incrimination, for > the general security of their fellow Canadians, it is obvious that they > pose little threat to their fellow Canadians. In addition it is widely > accepted, even by the Liberal Government responsible for creating Bill > C-68, that this law will not reduce the criminal use of firearms. > Accordingly, it would behoove the Government to concentrate its > efforts of Gun Control (whose officially stated aim is Public Safety) > elsewhere. > > The difficulty arises in trying to separate the people in categories b) > and d). As mentioned above, category c) is of little import to this > discussion. In order to determine which Canadians whom have NOT applied > for a POL or PAL and whom have NOT got a valid FAC are truly NOT in > possession of a firearm versus those who are in defiance of the law, it > will be necessary to expand the powers of Government by amending Bill > C-68 to allow for licensing of anyone NOT in possession of a POL, PAL or > valid FAC. This is of utmost importance, because as already noted, the > threat to Canadian citizens and even to our very system of 'Order and > Good Government' lies not with those who have obeyed the Law, but with > those in defiance of it. > > With this in mind the following amendments to Bill C-68 are to be made > immediately: > > i) Anyone not in possession of a POL, PAL, or valid FAC shall be > required to apply for a Firearms Non-Possession Permit (FNPP) by no > later than 01 January, 2002. > > ii) Anyone applying for a FNPP shall undergo background checks and > character references similar to those applying for PALs. This is so that > > the State can better understand the quality of their demeanor and > trustworthiness. > > iii) An untrained non owner is more dangerous than a trained owner of > firearms and so these people pose a greater safety risk to the public at > large, should they inadvertently come into contact with a firearm, than > does someone who has made firearms handling a part of their life. For > this reason all Canadians shall undergo firearms safety training at a > cost of $50.00 per student for each of the restricted and non restricted > firearms courses. In addition, for those with no interest in firearm > possession there will be special attention to the legalities involved in > refusing to admit gun ownership. This cost shall be borne by the > student. Initially everyone over the age of 18 who is not currently the > holder of a POL, PAL, or valid FAC shall take such training by no later > than 01 November 2001. This will allow time to process the paperwork > before the 01 January 2002 deadline. If a person can prove continuous > firearm non-ownership since 1979, s/he will be grandfathered and allowed > to take a verbal test over the phone. Members of First Nations may > receive Non Ownership status via the 'Alternate Certification' route at > no cost to themselves. > > iv) Once this phase is complete, all teenagers will receive non owner > training as a mandatory part of their High School curriculum. > > v) In order to facilitate this, the current CFC will be expanded to > include a Mirimichi sized facility in each Province and Territory with > two in each of Quebec and Ontario. Undoubtedly the jobs created by this > program will be welcomed in the upcoming economic recession. Funds for > this program shall be raised from the applicants in the form of Course > Tuition and Application Fees. > > vi) In addition to the course costs mentioned above, there will be a > $60.00 application fee, which is non-refundable in the event of refusal > by the CFC to issue the Applicant with a FNPP. The FNPP will be valid > for a period of five years. Renewal before it expires will entail a > quick police and medical record check and the applicant must pay $60.00 > each time s/he renews. Should the FNPP be allowed to expire, the holder > shall be de facto in violation of the law and subject to the penalties > as listed below. > > vii) Assuming successful completion of the training and application > process, the Canadian Non Owner can be proud to receive their FNPP as it > represents their Government's trust in them as a Law Abiding member of > the National Community. Those who fail training shall be given the > opportunity to try again at the next available course date. If they fail > a second time they will be deemed 'Untrainable' and they shall submit to > weekly inspections as described in section (ix) below. They will be > given an 'Untrainable Card' (UC) which is valid for life. The fee for > this card shall be $5000.00 every five years, to help defray the costs > of the frequent inspections these people require. Those who fail the > Application process will be automatically considered felons and they > will be prosecuted as listed below. > > viii) The Police shall have the power to demand from anyone at > anytime, that they produce a POL, PAL, valid FAC, FNPP, or UC. Failure > to produce one of these documents after 01 January 2002 shall result in > immediate arrest, confiscation of whatever property the felon is in > possession of at the time of the arrest, and prosecution with penalties > as listed below. > > ix) In order to ensure that the FNPP holder is in fact truly NOT in > possession of any firearms, they will make every effort to assist the > Police to perform detailed inspections of their home, place of business, > vehicles, and any other place that firearms may conceivably be kept. > These inspections shall be carried out on a random basis and without > warrant. Failure to comply will result in forcible entry by the > inspection team, followed by a destructive search of the location arrest > and prosecution of the felon as listed below. > > x) All holders of a POL, PAL, or valid FAC must prove ongoing > ownership of firearms by means of regular inspections. Failure to > actually be in possession of a firearm will result in the penalties > listed below. > > xi) In addition to actual firearms, the inspectors may also search > for any computers, electronic files, books, magazines or other > information > related to firearms. The holder of a FNPP must be able to > show good reason why s/he should be in possession of this kind of > information when s/he has professed no desire to own guns. > > xii) List of offenses and penalties: > > a) Failure to produce on demand a POL, PAL, valid FAC, > FNPP, or UC card --> Immediate arrest, search, confiscation of any > accompanying property, and if found guilty $2000.00 fine or up to two > years in prison. > > b) Refusal to assist in every way possible the Police > Inspection team --> Immediate arrest, forcible entry and destructive > search of the premises, confiscation of any property the Inspection Team > sees fit to take, and if found guilty $2000.00 fine and up to two years > in prison. > > c) Being in possession of firearms related information in > any form without lawful excuse --> Confiscation and destruction of the > information and $2000.00 fine and up to two years in jail. > > d) Being in possession of both a firearm AND either an > FNPP or a UC --> as per (a) above but also $5000.00 fine and five years > in prison. > > e) Failing to actually be in possession of a firearm when > one holds a POL, PAL or valid FAC --> Immediate arrest and laying of the > charge of Fraud. > > *Not a pretty picture, is it?* - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ** Please always use BCC and erase appended address lists when forwarding or sending to groups ** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:46:20 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: DID YOU REALLY THINK IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN? October 23rd 2009 JPFO ALERT: DID YOU REALLY THINK IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN? It appears that BATFE is actually compiling a national gun registration database. Not only that, foreign governments and police agencies now have access to this information. We recently received a document from an individual who has done a great deal of investigation into the computerization of BATFE records. We recommend that you immediately read our open letter of inquiry to the BATFE Acting Director, and draw your own conclusions. Read here - http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/melson-open-letter.htm Please share this alert and open letter with other gun owners. This alert, on JPFO - http://www.jpfo.org/alerts03/alert20091023.htm The Liberty Crew Protecting you by creating solutions to destroy "gun control" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:15:52 -0400 From: TONY KATZ Subject: Citizens Arrest and perverse justice Matthew Coutts National Post Published: Friday October 23 2009 David Chen wore a patiently strained smile as he sat in the back of a Toronto courthouse yesterday morning, shifting only slightly while he waited to face charges for the alleged assault and kidnapping of a shoplifter outside of his Chinatown produce store. Despite being surrounded by supporters from the Chinese-Canadian community, Mr. Chen-- the city's most notorious shopkeeper -- seemed out of place. He was a far cry from the Lucky Moose Market, the shop he owns just off of Spadina Avenue. Until May, when Mr. Chen and two employees were charged with attacking and confining a shoplifter who had returned to his store, the Chinese immigrant spent most of his time behind his shop counter. Yesterday, however, was spent with his lawyer in court, with a brief midmorning break in front of a swarm of television cameras and news reporters." I feel anxious and nervous," he said in English, through his strained smile, before turning to a supporter for help translating. "I feel this is really unfair to me...I feel a lot of pressure. I don't have a lot of time to run my business." Mr. Chen was arrested in May and charged with the alleged assault and kidnapping of a suspected shoplifter, Anthony Bennett. Surveillance video from May 23, 2009, shows Mr. Bennett taking a tray of plants from outside the Lucky Moose Market and stowing it on the back of his bicycle before riding off. An hour later, he returned. Mr. Chen and two employees chased him, caught him, bound his hands and held him in the back of a van until police arrived. Because the citizen's arrest did not occur during the commission of an offence, Mr. Chen was charged with assault, kidnapping, forcible confinement and concealment of a weapon, a box cutter he kept on his belt. Mr. Bennett was charged with two counts of shoplifting, one relating to a King Street flower shop. But after agreeing to testify as a Crown witness against Mr. Chen, he pleaded guilty and his sentence was significantly reduced. Mr. Chen's lawyer, Peter Lindsay, said he had hoped to have the charges against his client dropped yesterday. Instead, prosecutors appeared ready to proceed with them all. "Mr. Chen is being dragged through our criminal courts and it is ridiculous to me," he said. Mr. Lindsay said yesterday prosecutors wanted Mr. Chen to plead guilty to the charges of forcible confinement and concealing a weapon. He said there was no chance Mr. Chen would plead guilty to anything. "What today's events say about our justice system is that up is down and left is right and everything is perverse," he said on the steps of the courthouse. Dropping the kidnapping charge, an indictable offence, was still being considered by the Crown. By facing an indictable offence, Mr. Chen would be guaranteed a jury trial. Mr. Lindsay said he would love to have a jury of his peers decide Mr. Chen's fate. "Right and wrong is pretty obvious to ordinary members of the public. I have great faith in ordinary members of the public, but I really lose faith in our judicial system when it treats people the way Mr. Chen is treated." Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2135749#ixzz0UlttulAp ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #502 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)