Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, November 12 2009 Volume 13 : Number 547 In this issue: COLUMN: The Folly of Unilateral Disarmament [none] Guess who is now writing for Health Canada? Re: Guess who is now writing for Health Canada? comeuppance Another answer to Bill Tieleman's question... Who loves the gun registry? Not Canadians says a new poll. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, November 11, 2009 3:52 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: COLUMN: The Folly of Unilateral Disarmament REASON.COM - NOVEMBER 11, 2009 The Folly of Unilateral Disarmament At Fort Hood “more guns” assuredly were “the solution to gun violence.” BY Jacob Sullum | November 11, 2009 http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/11/the-folly-of-unilateral-disarm When Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan started shooting up the Soldier Readiness Processing Center at Fort Hood, Pfc. Marquest Smith dove under a desk. A.P. reports that “he lay low for several minutes, waiting for the shooter to run out of ammunition and wishing he, too, had a gun.” Neither Smith nor the other victims of Hasan’s assault had guns because soldiers on military bases within the United States generally are not supposed to carry them. Last week’s shootings, which killed 13 people and wounded more than 30, demonstrated once again the folly of “gun-free zones,” which attract and assist people bent on mass murder instead of deterring them. Judging from the comments of those who support this policy of victim disarmament, Smith’s desire for a gun was irrational. According to Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, “This latest tragedy, at a heavily fortified army base, ought to convince more Americans to reject the argument that the solution to gun violence is to arm more people with more guns in more places.” Note how the reference to “a heavily fortified army base” obscures the crucial point that the people attacked by Hasan were unarmed as a matter of policy. Also note the breathtaking inanity of Helmke’s assurance that “more guns” are not “the solution to gun violence.” In this case, they assuredly were. The first people with guns to confront Hasan, two local police officers, were the ones who put a stop to his rampage. And while Sgt. Kim Munley and Sgt. Mark Todd acted heroically, they did not arrive on the scene until a crucial 10 minutes or so had elapsed and Hasan had fired more than 100 rounds. If someone else at the processing center had a gun when Hasan started shooting, it seems likely that fewer people would have been killed or injured. Furthermore, the knowledge that some of his victims would be armed might have led him to choose a different, softer target in order to maximize the impact of his attack. There would have been plenty of targets to choose from: any of the locations in Texas, including public schools, universities, and shopping malls, that advertise their prohibition of gun possession. The problem is that crazed killers tend not to follow such rules. That problem was vividly illustrated by the second deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history, which occurred in Killeen, Texas, a stone’s throw from Fort Hood. In 1991 George Jo Hennard drove his pickup truck through the window of a Luby’s cafeteria in Killeen, jumped out, and began firing two pistols at the defenseless customers and employees inside, killing 23 of them. One customer, Suzanna Hupp, saw Hennard gun down her parents. Hupp later testified that she had brought a handgun with her that day but, to her bitter regret, left it in her car, as required by state law. The massacre led the Texas legislature to approve a “shall issue” law that allows any resident who meets certain objective criteria to obtain a concealed carry permit. But people with such permits are still barred from bringing their weapons into areas designated as gun-free zones. And when a killer fires on people he knows will be unarmed, it matters little whether he has 20-round or 10-round magazines, a detail emphasized in press coverage of the Fort Hood massacre. The second or two it takes to switch magazines is a minor nuisance when the people you are shooting at cannot shoot back. Even less relevant is the allegation that Hasan used illegal armor-piercing ammunition. The Brady Campaign bizarrely chose to highlight that claim even though there was no indication that any of Hasan’s victims were wearing bullet-proof vests, let alone that his bullets penetrated them. Perhaps the group hoped that such puzzling illogic would distract people from the plain fact that having a gun is better than not having one when you are confronted by a homicidal maniac.   Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason and a nationally syndicated columnist. http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/11/the-folly-of-unilateral-disarm   ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:25:51 -0500 From: "mred" Subject: [none] cc. "DAVID SWEET" , "JIM FLAHERTY" , "STOCKWELL DAY" , "STEPHEN HARPER" , "PETER MACKAY" , "MICHAEL IGNATIEFF" , "JACK LAYTON" , "GARY BREITKREUZ" Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: NatPost - Letter - Scott McLeod: Grandstanding in the name of gun http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/11/project-safe-city.aspx > > Scott McLeod: Grandstanding in the name of gun safety > > Posted: November 11, 2009, 1:15 PM by NP Editor > Full Comment > > As a Fire Chief, I believe it is important to keep abreast of emerging > trends and news. Just a quick note to let all know how the Toronto Police force is intimidating citizens and violating their Charter Rights. "You`ll let us in if you have nothing to hide". They are going door to door now, asking , and/or intimidating citizens to allow them into their homes to search for any thing to do with the young lady who went missing, TWO MONTHS AGO~!...as if there would be any evidence left now? This means citizens are guilty and if they find anything remotely resembling anything about the girl you are guilty and will be charged. It doesn't have to have anything to do with her, but just resemble something she may have had? This is reminiscent of the last police crackdown on legal gun-owners who forgot to renew their licenses. I remember during the last war the Nazis did the same thing looking for guns and Jews. The similarity is eerily reminiscent of those bad times. We have now descended into a Fascist state because the police are too lazy and incompetent to do their job other wise, at least in Toronto. THIS? is what all our good Candian soldiers died for in WW 11 and today in Afghanistan? trying to bring "democracy" to Afghanistan ? Perhaps these soldiers should come home and bring democracy to Toronto and Canada? ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:49:18 -0400 From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Guess who is now writing for Health Canada? http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cdic-mcc/19-1/d_e.html - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ** Please always use BCC and erase appended address lists when forwarding or sending to groups ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:23:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Guess who is now writing for Health Canada? - --- On Wed, 11/11/09, M.J. Ackermann, MD wrote: > From: M.J. Ackermann, MD > Subject: Guess who is now writing for Health Canada? > Received: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 6:49 PM > http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cdic-mcc/19-1/d_e.html That's an old one, Dr. Mike: Volume 19, No.1 - 2000 Yours in TYRANNY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:59:36 -0400 From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: comeuppance Re: http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology/Stranded+teen+kills+polar+bear+floe+survive/2205227/story.html What, he had a gun?? I guess the costs-only approach of the antis just got its comeuppance! This is by no means a unique occurrence. Guns save more lives than they cost. But without a dead body, there is no newsworthy story. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ** Please always use BCC and erase appended address lists when forwarding or sending to groups ** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, November 12, 2009 9:30 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Another answer to Bill Tieleman's question... If Long Gun Registry Is So Dumb, Why Do Police Like It? Most Canadians want it, too. So why are opposition members helping Tories kill it? By Bill Tieleman, Today, TheTyee.ca http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/11/10/LongGunRegistry/   From: Don Klein [mailto:decline@icrossroads.com] Sent: November-10-09 10:48 PM To: westar@telus.net Subject: NDP MP vote for C-391 result of 96% response to household survey   Dear Mr. Tieleman,   Thankfully some honest NDP and Liberal members voted the wishes of their constituents who were as much as 95% in support of dismantling the useless, expensive, and horribly dangerous gun registry.  You seem also to be mistaken about polls on the gun registry since many polls show up to 75% of Canadians in favour of dismantling the pitifully incomplete and error riddled gun registry.  The stunning election of a Conservative in a Bloc stronghold in Quebec belies the so-called experts who say support for the registry is “strongest in Quebec.”  This of course, occurred shortly after second reading passing of the bill to eliminate the useless registry. There are perhaps more unregistered guns in rural Quebec than anywhere else in Canada since they traditionally were the largest per capita firearms owners.  They are still there unless the ‘gun fairy’ took them from under their pillows.   Perhaps this will tell you why normal honest people and police DO NOT SUPPORT THE DANGEROUS, HORRIBLY EXPENSIVE, AND USELESS REGISTRY.  The attached letters from REAL senior police officers will tell you why POLICE DO NOT USE THE REGISTRY, for to do so would indicate that they are suicidal.  Only Liberals, their cronies, and criminals profited from the abominable C-68 firearms act.  I sport shoot and hunt with a number of professionals and senior police officers and they all, to a man (and woman) detest the useless and wasteful registry.  None of them would even think of staking their lives on the incomplete and error riddled mess.  ALL trouble calls are treated as though there could be "weapons present" whether guns or other equally deadly items may be present and when such tools are used as a “weapon.”  Since less than 1/3 of firearms known to exist in Canada are in the error riddled and out of date registry database, and criminals DEFINITELY do not register or license, any police officer depending on the registry would be akin to playing Russian Roulette with five chambers loaded.   See this letter from a retired senior RCMP officer and Chief of Police:   ERIC W. FERGUSON, Retired Chief of Police and RCMP Officer: I was 75 years of age on Dec. 31, 2005. Part of my life's story was serving 24 years with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and four years as Police Chief for the City of Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada. For the past six or seven years I have stood by and watched the Liberal Government of Canada mishandle gun control and in the process not save one life, but encouraging criminals to commit more offences and yes, help to turn good honest Canadians into [paper] criminals. Now Prime Minister your plan to banish all handguns is real "dumb". Sir, have you not figured out yet, that criminals do not register their guns, not now or in the future? Your political plan will not save one life! SOURCE: Moncton Times and Transcript Letter: “Prime Minister had his chance and failed”, Page D8, January 4, 2006   And also see this poignant and logical letter from an active senior officer who for political reasons chose to withhold his name:   SASKATCHEWAN RCMP OFFICER (Name withheld by Garry Breitkreuz, MP): I am a peace officer with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and am currently posted to the xxxxxxxxxx Detachment. One of my current responsibilities is to train new cadets that have recently graduated from Depot Division by furthering their "hands on" training in the field. I am very concerned about this new Bill regarding firearms registration. I am concerned that if it is not passed in the House that more Mounties may face the same fate as the two young men did within this last month. This firearms registration must be abolished once and for all! I find that I have to deprogram every cadet that I train when it comes to CFRO checks and their reliability in regards to officer safety. One dark evening, myself and a newly graduated cadet had to visit a residence of someone suspected of a violent crime. The cadet told me, rather proudly, that they had conducted a CFRO check on the house and that it showed that there were no firearms present, so we would not have to worry. I scolded his ignorance and naivety. I told him to stop and think about that for a moment. I said, "Do you honestly think that someone who is already living a criminal lifestyle and is in possession of firearms has any intention of registering them?" I told him to never place any faith in the registry and most of all, never trust that notion that just because nothing is registered to an individual then an officer's safety is insured. Conversely also, do not ever believe that just because someone has a firearm registered that they will never use it in the commission of an offence! It does not matter if a gun is registered, if someone is bent on crime they will use a registered or non-registered gun. If no gun is available, they will use something else. In my evaluation, the registry only causes more criminal code infractions (before the amnesty) as police query law abiding citizens' guns to see if they are registered only to find out that they may not be - in spite of the claims that the owner did in fact attempt to register them; or the information on the registration certificate is incorrect, etc. making the gun owner appear negligent. The gun registry places police officers' lives at risk. The gun registry offers a false sense of security. The gun registry is making criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens. The gun registry is eating up resources that the RCMP and every other municipal or first nation force desperately need. The gun registry consumes valuable time for the average police officer on the street who has real crime to fight. Saying that the guns are the problem in this society is like saying pens are the cause of spelling errors, or that cars are the cause of drunk driving, or like saying fast food restaurants are the cause of obesity. When will common sense prevail? People need to be held accountable for their actions - whether with firearms, alcohol, vehicles, etc. That is what the Conservatives did with the Liberals when in opposition and then on a larger scale once elected. The gun registry brings justice into disrepute. It is an absolute waste of taxpayer’s money. The registry does nothing to fight the crime issues in this country. Please do everything possible to make sure that this Bill passes. SOURCE: Personal E-Mail to Garry Breitkreuz, MP dated November 17, 2007.     And for hundreds of others please log on to: http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/policequotes.htm A very valuable and educational use of your spare time!  You will see that not ALL police chiefs or even Superintendents support the dangerous registry.  You may be certain the cop on the street does NOT use it.   The completely asinine comparison to “registering a car” is worse than a joke.  You do NOT go to jail for parking your car and not renewing your registration.  You do NOT go to jail for letting your license lapse, unless of course you drive without it.  BUT THEY DO NOT CONFISCATE YOUR CAR FOR PARKING IT AND LETTING THE LICENSE LAPSE and then PUT YOU IN JAIL!  That is where the comparison used by the gun grabbers fails miserably.  It is no valid comparison at all.   Until nearby acreage development caused us to voluntarily shut down our shooting range for safety reasons, the RCMP used it for their own training and practice. We are in the process of creating a new one in an undeveloped area. Gun owners traditionally have been the biggest supporters of police forces.  C-68 has unfortunately made them adversaries or at least “perceived” adversaries.  This is the real tragedy of the C-68 firearms act that protects criminals and makes “paper” criminals out of the honest and productive seven million strong firearms community.  I hear about it constantly through my police associates and the shooting sports.  Guns are generally a sporting tool, and if used improperly, the user should be punished.  A golf club or tree branch could be just as deadly if the user so chose.  Any object only becomes a weapon when the user chooses it to be. When any object is used offensively, the law is there to punish the user. Or at least it SHOULD be.  Our upside down justice system is badly in need of fixing.  Some strides are fortunately being made, albeit at a snail's pace.  Perhaps that pace will improve with the elimination of the offensive, useless, expensive, grossly incomplete, error riddled, and dangerous gun registry.   All the best,   Don Klein Secretary Valley Rifle Club 1972 Inc. CC and BCC to all members, local RCMP, legal, press, and other concerned stakeholders.             - -----Original Message----- From: Dennis & Hazel Young [mailto:dhyoung@shaw.ca] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:06 PM To: Firearms Digest Subject: NDP MP vote for C-391 result of 96% response to household survey   RAINY RIVER RECORD - NOVEMBER 10, 2009 Rafferty votes to abolish long gun registry http://www.rainyriverrecord.com/node/8278   News Release - John Rafferty, M.P.   New Democrat Member of Parliament John Rafferty (Thunder Bay - Rainy River) cast a vote to abolish the Long Gun Registry today by supporting Bill C-391 on second reading in the House of Commons. Rafferty was one of several New Democrats that helped assure passage of C-391 which now heads to a parliamentary committee before returning to the House for a final vote later in the session.   "I was happy to cast a vote in support of C-391 on behalf of the people of Thunder Bay - Rainy River, and I am pleased that this bill is moving forward to committee," Rafferty said. "I will continue to support this bill through the rest of legislative process, and I look forward to casting a final vote to abolish the Long Gun Registry when it comes back to the House."   Rafferty went public with his support for C-391 after hearing from his constituents on the matter. "Early in the year I sent a survey to every household in our riding and 96 percent of respondents said that the registry was unfair to law abiding firearms owners, that it was ineffective in reducing violent crime, and that it should be abolished. Rafferty said. "I had a crystal clear mandate from my constituents on the issue, and I was happy to fulfill it by supporting C-391."   Rafferty and his New Democrat colleague Bruce Hyer (Thunder Bay - Superior North) went public with their support for C-391 in May which garnered them praise and support from a variety of local and regional groups including Northwestern Ontario Sportsmen's Alliance (NOSA) and the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH). "We are pleased at the strong commitment made by Mr. Rafferty and Mr. Hyer to support C-391," said Greg Farrant, Government Relations Manager at OFAH. "Both MP's should be commended for taking a stand in support of their constituents on this issue."   ------------------------------ Date: Thu, November 12, 2009 9:24 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Who loves the gun registry? Not Canadians says a new poll. Who loves the gun registry? Not Canadians says a new poll. November 12, 5:51 AM - Canada Politics Examiner, Brian Lilley http://www.examiner.com/x-22884-Canada-Politics-Examiner~y2009m11d12-Who-loves-gun-control-Not-Canadians-says-a-new-poll It's been interesting watching the political partisans and pundits argue about the Harris-Decima poll on the long-gun registry and what the poll really means, but all spin aside, this poll is bad news for supporters of the registry. Across Canada 46% of us say abolishing the long-gun registry is a good idea while 41% of us say it is a bad idea. That number alone should put to rest the notion that the nation will rise up if the gun registry is scrapped but it's the numbers below the top line that are truly interesting. While 71% of Bloc Quebecois voters support the gun registry just 48% of Liberal voters do. The party that developed and maintained the gun registry can't even convince half of it's supporters that the registry is a good idea. Among Liberal voters 39% think scrapping the registry is the right way to go which leaves 13% of Liberal ambivalent about the party's biggest contribution to the law and order file. Perhaps this is why Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff, just hours before the vote on scrapping the program, was musing about finding a form of gun control that works for urban and rural Canada. Yet even in urban Canada 42% say scrapping the registry is a good idea while only 44% say this is a bad idea, women remarkably favour abolishing the registry 42% in favour to 41% against. This is bad news for those Liberals who felt that railing against the Conservative plan to scrap the gun registry would help them win back core voters. You cannot find a clear majority to support the registry in those core Liberal demographic groups, not one of them tilts above 50 percent in favour of keeping the controversial system of tracking firearms. In fact the only groups in the entire country that Harris-Decima shows supporting the gun registry in the majority are Bloc voters as a group and Quebecers in general. The poll shows 56% of Quebecers support the gun registry, a level of support that I'd wager would go down if you took Montreal out of the equation or polled in the many rural ridings of the province. I wonder what this news will do to the perception that Canadians in general and Quebecers in particular support the gun registry. While at one point that support may have been there, years of reports on the program's mismanagement and huge cost overruns, never mind questions about its effectiveness, means many Canadians have shifted their stance. Even in Quebec. If you ask any expert on Parliament Hill, even today, they will tell you that Quebec loves the long-gun registry, it's just those yahoos out west and on scattered farms across the country that are not with the system. Part of that is true; Quebec loves the gun registry, if you define Quebec as Montreal and anyone in the regions who wishes they were in Montreal. When Parliament voted in favour of the Conservative private members bill to scrap the gun registry many journalists were left scratching their heads, some just could not understand why 12 New Democrats and 8 Liberals voted with the Conservatives to kill the gun registry (the poll should stop some of that head scratching) but the people that really went nuts were the Quebec based journalists. Some reporters working for French language media outlets got into shouting matches with MPs and cabinet ministers when it came to the gun registry. The vote was a slap in the face to the Quebec consensus said the experts, a consensus expressed in the unanimous vote of the National Assembly calling for the gun registry to be maintained. As with much of the Quebec consensus it turns out that the love the province feels for the gun registry is a myth. If the poll doesn't prove that, the by-election win for the Conservatives in Quebec should. On Monday the Conservatives stole a seat from the Bloc Quebecois, the only party to vote in unison to keep the gun registry as it is. For the Conservatives to even try to win this seat just after voting to scrap something Quebec holds near and dear to its heart just showed the party was out of touch was the line from many talking heads. Apparently some people need to get out into the regions more often. Bernard Generoux defeated Bloc candidate Nancy Gagnon by five percentage points. Norman Spector pointed me to a column by Vincent Marissal in La Presse, published on the morning of the by-election. While the main topic is something different, Marissal drops in a few lines about the gun registry at the end pointing out that not all Quebecers love the program. "Five years ago, in the midst of the sponsorship scandal, Paul Martin's Liberals were amazed that during their tours of the regions, fishy publicity contracts were much less on the minds of Quebeckers than was the gun registry. Stephen Harper knows that. He's doing what he does best: slicing the electorate into small segments, in order to scrape together the votes he needs outside metropolitan areas." I think Marissal is partly right but I think what Stephen Harper is also doing is recognizing that there are more voices in Canada than those that emanate from Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. Harper is giving those voters a voice on issues that matter to them. In acknowledging that the Liberals may have been too doctrinaire on gun control in the past, Ignatieff is looking for a way to reach out to those same voters, knowing he'll need some of them on his side if he ever wants to replace Stephen Harper as Prime Minister. Brian Lilley is the Ottawa Bureau Chief for radio stations Newstalk 1010 in Toronto and CJAD 800 in Montreal. Follow Brian on Twitter to get the latest as it happens. Get more from Examiner.com's Canadian Politics Examiner http://www.examiner.com/x-22884-Canada-Politics-Examiner ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #547 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)