Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, November 19 2009 Volume 13 : Number 564 In this issue: RE: Fed Up I G&M Blog - Liberals get 'realistic' on gun-registry Does gun ownership make for unfit parents? Editorial: New Jersey's gun law goof Council considers gun control resolution Globe & Mail Column: Liberals get 'realistic' on gun-registry Re: Hamilton Specator: Oh deer, where exactly does the buck stop? Some thoughts on December 6th Barrie Examiner - Cop scolded for leaving rifle in unlocked car re: TorStar - Letter - Enough of long-gun martyrdom FED UP I RALLY More facts and fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:35:01 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: RE: Fed Up I - --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Trigger Mortis wrote: > I think it was about 1998 or 1999. I was there. > There were lots of gun owners there. I'd say about 20,000 minimum. > > Alan Harper That was FedUp II, held on September 22, 1998; the estimates were 30,000 I can't seem to find when FedUp I was held... Yours in TYRANNY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:57:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: G&M Blog - Liberals get 'realistic' on gun-registry http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/liberals-get-realistic-on-gun-registry/article1368417/ Liberals get 'realistic' on gun-registry Jane Taber Wednesday, November 18, 2009 2:02 PM Michael Ignatieff is reconsidering his decision to allow his MPs to vote however they wish on private member's bills after the fiasco of the long-gun registry vote. In caucus today, the Liberal Leader told his MPs that he isœtaking under advisement the recommendation by the Liberal Whip Rodger Cuzner to control private member's votes, according to an inside source. This issue arose as the result of a controversial vote this month when eight Liberal MPs voted for a Conservative private member's bill to scrap the long-gun registry this, despite pleas by the Whip and the Leader for MPs to stand together and vote against it. After all, the long-gun registry was brought in by the Liberals at a big political cost. There was criticism from observers and even grumbling within the party that the vote should have been whipped. The Bloc whipped its members to vote against the bill. The vote exposed the weakness of Mr. Ignatieff in being able to lead his caucus in one direction. It also exposed important and potentially destructive splits between urban and rural MPs. Mr. Ignatieff made his comments after an intervention by Toronto Liberal MP Bob Rae, warning of the divisive nature of issue. It is believed that the Harper Tories are using this as a wedge to disrupt the unity of the Liberal caucus. The long-gun registry bill is now before an all-party Commons committee and Mr. Rae urged his colleagues to beœpolitically realistic, said the source, about putting forward amendments that may not pass. He said that there isœno need to do great heroics orœclimb mountains to try to push through amendments. He said that this issue can cause internal damage to the party, the insider said. Mr. Rae, meanwhile, had this to say after the weekly closed-door party meeting: I absolutely refuse to comment on anything said in caucus my views on gun control are well known. I am a supporter of the registry. Period. A new face appeared at caucus this morning, too, as Mr. Ignatieff's new chief of staff Peter Donolo addressed the troops. He officially took over his new duties yesterday and his first act was a major re-organization of the Opposition Leader's Office. Mr. Donolo told MPs and Senators that “this is your caucus. He was not about to interfere and that he would drop in on caucus meetings again whenœwe double our number of seats.€ť Indeed, many Liberals seem pumped about the changes to the OLO, including Mr. Ignatieff who said that he was happy with the new team. The Liberal Leader said that the team has a great ability to consult, anticipate issues and to execute. The new OLO lineup, Mr. Ignatieff said, according to the source, will strike a balance between public policy and politics. He also said he will be travelling, attending as many annual general meetings in the provinces as he can. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, November 18, 2009 4:25 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Does gun ownership make for unfit parents? Does gun ownership make for unfit parents? November 18, 6:40 AM - Cleveland Gun Rights Examiner, Daniel White http://www.examiner.com/x-2206-Cleveland-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m11d18-Does-gun-ownership-make-for-unfit-parents In Florida, some adoption agencies include the question "do you own a gun?" on their adoption application paperwork. The implication that gun owners might be considered to be unfit parents have many people concerned. This is almost a profiling of adoptive parents," said Marion Hammer, NRA Board member and Tallahassee gun rights lobbyist. "They don't want to be profiled, they don't want to be treated differently because they choose to exercise a constitutional right. One couple to raise the issue were Ron And Fran Fahs. They both felt the question was out of line although they don't even own guns. Let's just stay with responsible parenting and issues that are involved in that, and not get down to specifics like, 'do you have sharp nails in the house', or, you know, 'are your knives all put up above children's reach.' Gun control advocates like the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence do believe that gun ownership make for unfit citizens not just unfit parents. They throw out statistics like "13 children are killed each day by guns" without telling you that their figures include "children" up to age 19 or 24, include gang warfare, include criminal on criminal violence such as drug dealing disputes, and include those killed by law enforcement during arrest attempts. The true rate is closer to 1.3 per day, which can be contrasted with the 13 children per day that die in car accidents or the 4 per day that die from child abuse. If it is really about protecting the children they should be more concerned about which applicants own a car. Of course those against guns don't want to talk about the number of children whose lives were saved because their parents were armed. While statistics regarding crimes that don't happen aren't kept, it is estimated that guns are used up to 2.5 million times a year to prevent a crime from happening. It isn't a stretch to think that quite a few of those included defending households from home invasions and kept kids safe. The sad fact of life is that tragedy happens. There are gun accidents just like there are accidents resulting from running with scissors. But exercising a Constitutional right and taking responsibility for your family's safety does not make you an unfit parent. In fact, it makes you a better parent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, November 18, 2009 4:29 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Editorial: New Jersey's gun law goof New Jersey's gun law goof By Star-Ledger Editorial Board November 18, 2009, 5:16AM http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2009/11/new_jerseys_gun_law_goof.html When Gov. Jon Corzine signed a law in August limiting handgun purchases in New Jersey to one per month, the objective was to reduce the supply of weapons that can end up in the hands of criminals. A noble effort. But a mistake in the drafting of the bill means that it also limits legitimate gun shops to buying one gun a month, which was never the intention. The state's Firearms Task Force has called on the Legislature to make repairs to the law. It only makes sense. Even the gun-control advocates at Ceasefire NJ support the move. Let's do it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, November 18, 2009 4:32 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Council considers gun control resolution MONTREAL EXPRESS - NOVEMBER 18, 2009 Council considers gun control resolution par Martin C. Barry http://www.montrealexpress.ca/article-402766-Council-considers-gun-control-resolution.html Mayor Peter Trent is not ruling out the possibility that city council may pass a resolution expressing support for the federal government to further tighten gun control legislation. Last Monday evening during council’s first public meeting since the municipal elections, Trent was asked during question period by Roger Jochym of Lewis Avenue whether Westmount would follow the example of Montreal city council, which plans to pass such a resolution. Jochym said Westmount should “urge the federal government to further tighten the regulations so that the possibility of guns being used to kill, wound and maim innocent people continues to constantly be reduced, as it has this past 10 years. “I would suggest this be done to commemorate the life of Anastasia De Sousa,” he added, referring to the 18-year-old De Sousa, who was shot and killed during a shooting rampage at Dawson College three years ago, in which 19 others were injured, some seriously. Trent said that after the Polytechnique murders in 1989, he became involved with the gun control movement. One of its strongest proponents was Heidi Rathjen, who had been a student at the University of Montreal’s École polytechnique, where 14 women were shot to death. “I made a number of speeches, wrote a lot of articles and supported her in any way, shape or form," Trent said. "So I’m very much in favour of gun control. As for this particular issue, certainly council has to take a look at it. We are nine people, I’m just one. But my past record has been one of being very strongly in favour of gun control.” ------------------------------ Date: Wed, November 18, 2009 4:35 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Globe & Mail Column: Liberals get 'realistic' on gun-registry GLOBE AND MAIL - NOVEMBER 18, 2009 Liberals get 'realistic' on gun-registry by Jane Taber http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/liberals-get-realistic-on-gun-registry/article1368417/ Michael Ignatieff is reconsidering his decision to allow his MPs to vote however they wish on private member's bills after the fiasco of the long-gun registry vote. In caucus today, the Liberal Leader told his MPs that he is "taking under advisement" the recommendation by the Liberal Whip Rodger Cuzner to "control private member's votes," according to an inside source. This issue arose as the result of a controversial vote this month when eight Liberal MPs voted for a Conservative private member's bill to scrap the long-gun registry - this, despite pleas by the Whip and the Leader for MPs to stand together and vote against it. After all, the long-gun registry was brought in by the Liberals at a big political cost. There was criticism from observers and even grumbling within the party that the vote should have been whipped. The Bloc whipped its members to vote against the bill. The vote exposed the weakness of Mr. Ignatieff in being able to lead his caucus in one direction. It also exposed important and potentially destructive splits between urban and rural MPs. Mr. Ignatieff made his comments after an intervention by Toronto Liberal MP Bob Rae, warning of the divisive nature of issue. It is believed that the Harper Tories are using this as a wedge to disrupt the unity of the Liberal caucus. The long-gun registry bill is now before an all-party Commons committee and Mr. Rae urged his colleagues to be "politically realistic," said the source, about putting forward amendments that may not pass. He said that there is "no need" to do "great heroics" or "climb mountains" to try to push through amendments. He said that this issue can cause "internal damage" to the party, the insider said. Mr. Rae, meanwhile, had this to say after the weekly closed-door party meeting: "I absolutely refuse to comment on anything said in caucus - my views on gun control are well known. I am a supporter of the registry. Period." A new face appeared at caucus this morning, too, as Mr. Ignatieff's new chief of staff Peter Donolo addressed the troops. He officially took over his new duties yesterday and his first act was a major re-organization of the Opposition Leader's Office. Mr. Donolo told MPs and Senators that "this is your caucus." He was not about to interfere and that he would drop in on caucus meetings again when "we double our number of seats." Indeed, many Liberals seem pumped about the changes to the OLO, including Mr. Ignatieff who said that he was happy with the new team. The Liberal Leader said that the team has a great ability to consult, anticipate issues and to execute. The new OLO lineup, Mr. Ignatieff said, according to the source, will strike a balance between public policy and politics. He also said he will be travelling, attending as many annual general meetings in the provinces as he can. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:09:25 -0500 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Hamilton Specator: Oh deer, where exactly does the buck stop? IVE LIVED IN ANCASTER SINCE 1968 AND I NEVER HEARD OF THIS CONSERVATION AREA BEFORE ANYBODY GIVE ME THE LOCATION PLEASE ? ED/ON . . . . . . . . . . . . - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" To: "Firearms Digest" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:08 AM Subject: Hamilton Specator: Oh deer, where exactly does the buck stop? > HAMILTON SPECTATOR - NOVEMBER 18, 2009 > Oh deer, where exactly does the buck stop? By Danielle Wong > http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/674800 > > Two provincial ministries are deflecting responsibility over a deer > hunting > controversy at the Iroquoia Heights Conservation Area. Minister of > Natural > Resources Donna Cansfield said a case involving First Nations treaty > rights > falls under the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs. On the other end, Greg > Flood, a spokesperson for that ministry, says the MNR is "the lead > government voice" on the Iroquoia Heights matter. >SNIP< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:28:04 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: Some thoughts on December 6th As the 20th anniversary of the Montreal Massacre is approaching keep in mind the following: 1. Gamel Gharbi being the name of Mark Lepine is beginning to get acceptance as some are realizing that the Dec. 6/89 homicides only make sense culturally as "honour killings". The government is frustrated getting Canadians to accept the reality of terrorism, their past collusion with the MSM has come back to haunt them. Their continued denial is part of their problem. 2. 14 women died that day, 13 were shot and the 14th was stabbed to death (the police officer's daughter). Being stabbed/slashed to death is just as dead as being shot. Don't think so? Ask the 900,000 Rwandans who were killed with long knives(machetes). They were killed at an astounding rate. Would 1, 12, or 18 jihadis, wielding machetes and/or a gun, face anymore resistance than Gamel Gharbi did? We'd like to think so but pacifism is more of a dominant ideology now than it was twenty years ago. Nowadays it's officially endorsed by the police, the judiciary and all levels of government including schools. 3. Remember the FAC/PAL mandatory question about disclosing the breakdown of a "relationship" within the past 2 years. The jihadis are by indocrination afraid of women who they are taught are the 'devil's temptation'. Likely both Gamel Gharbi and Fort Hood's Dr. Nidal Malik Hassan would be able to check off No, as they never managed a serious long term relationship with a woman. Remember Dr. Hassan refused to even be in a group photo at work if there were women in the photo. The normal change of relationships, separations and divorce might show up but the serious jihadi unlikely. Two of the last seven "honour killings" in Ontario involved the woman's brother shooting his sister and her boyfriend in public. He used a handgun. 18 years of 'gun control' and 75 years of handgun registration didn't stop him from getting it? Even if the jihadi did have a relationship and were planning an honour killing(or many), since they believe Western culture to be corrupt and are religiously dedicated to destroy it, what motivation would they have to answer the questions truthfully? 4. Has the status and activity and gunplay of violent criminals gone up where you live over the past twenty years of "gun control"? Where I live it has done so massively, though the authorities still try to hide that fact. Notable is that youth who have grown up fearing gang violence view it as normal and normal not to be a witness to violent crime. In their experience violent criminals have a status far above that of ordinary citizens. They've never known it to be otherwise. Well, even the MSM tell them that they are safer now with gun control than they would have been growing up before it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:38:34 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Barrie Examiner - Cop scolded for leaving rifle in unlocked car http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2180328 Cop scolded for leaving rifle in unlocked car COURTS: Teen pleads guilty to stealing gun Posted By TRACY MCLAUGHLIN Posted 3 hours ago A Barrie judge slammed the actions of an OPP officer yesterday, saying it was "shocking" to have left a combat rifle in the backseat of an unlocked vehicle where two teens came across it in the night and stole it. Yesterday, one of the teens, now 17, pleaded guilty to theft and possession of a weapon after he admitted to stealing it in the middle of the night last May when he and his friend were out looting cars for loose change. The teens came across the unmarked officer's vehicle parked on a residential street in Barrie where they found a CQB Close Quarter Battle combat rifle in a canvas case in the backseat -- along with 180 rounds of ammunition. Court heard the teens took the weapon to the 17-year-old's home and hid it in the basement. "This was foolish, youthful curiosity," Justice Joe Wilson said during his sentencing of the teen to 18 months probation and 50 hours of community service. He must also write a letter of apology to the police officer. "There is no evidence that there was any intent to do anything with it," said the judge. "But I find it shocking to hear that a firearm and 180 rounds of ammunition were kept in an unlocked vehicle by a trained officer... and then not report that it was missing for four days." In court, the teen stood before the judge and apologized for his crime. "It was a stupid thing to steal from anybody, let alone a gun," said the teen, reading from a note he wrote on the back of his hockey schedule. "But I believe all things must happen for a reason, and for me, this was a wake-up call," he said, telling the judge he wants to concentrate on playing hockey and going to school. Sitting with his father outside of court, the teen admitted he was confused when he and his buddy looked at the lethal weapon in his bedroom after they had stolen it. "It was like a kick of adrenaline, but it was scary," he said. "I didn't think a police officer would leave it lying around in the car. So I thought it must have belonged to a drug dealer." He and his buddy stashed the weapon and the ammunition separately in his basement, then kept their secret, until one of them slipped up and was overheard at school. A month later, police received an anonymous tip and suddenly nine tactical vehicles converged on the teen's home while he was out, just as his unsuspecting father was leaving his home with his nine-year-old daughter. Last July, the other teen, also 17, received a three-month jail sentence. But OPP initially refused to reveal to the public what action, if any, would be taken against the OPP police officer, Jennifer Van Allan. "That is an internal matter," said OPP media relations Sgt. Pierre Chamberland from OPP headquarters in Orillia. "I can't speak to that." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:39:17 +1300 From: Walter Martindale Subject: re: TorStar - Letter - Enough of long-gun martyrdom My response, sent to the star - below... > > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:53:46 -0800 (PST) > From: Bruce Mills > Subject: TorStar - Letter - Enough of long-gun martyrdom > > http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/727090 > > Enough of long-gun martyrdom > > You would think that after the article this past summer by the head of the Canadian police chiefs association, in which he pointed out that long guns are the weapon of choice of police and wife killers and how valuable > police find the Long Gun Registry, that long-gun advocates would stop > pretending that the registry is useless. If it were, the police wouldn't > access it hundreds of times each day. > > Isn't it about time long-gun advocates got over their martyr complex and > admitted that, if there were no gun laws, criminals would be first in line at gun shops to purchase guns. > > Don Biderman, Toronto Actually, I suspect a bunch of people would get to the gun store to buy the guns for personal defense. The criminal types would either try to steal them from the gun shops (bad idea, because with no gun laws, the shop staff would be armed), or buy them on the black market (oh, wait - that's what they already do...) Walter Martindale Christchurch, NZ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:18:37 -0500 From: "John Perocchio" Subject: FED UP I RALLY FED UP I RALLY Where: Parliament Hill, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada When: Thursday, September 22, 1994, commencing at noon Size: Official reports indicate that 22,000 people were present. Why: Canada's Recreational Firearms Community wished to convey it's displeasure in clear terms to the then ruling Liberal Party. Canada's Recreational Firearms Community vehemently disagreed with the gouvernment of Jean Chretien and then Minister of Justice Allan Rock over the pending imposition of Bill C-68 (Gun Control). The latter was introduced the next year on February 14, 1995. This rally was perhaps the starting point of the long awaited confrontation between Canada's Recreational Firearms Community and gouvernment. Up until that time the debates between Canada's Recreational Firearms Community and gouvernment had primarily been a grass roots affair which subsequent gouvernments since the Trudeau administration had seen fit to disregard. While some success had been attained by the first National Firearms Association (NFA, 1976-1982) and the post-1982 NFA and others, gouvernments, both federal and provincial, refused to accept the growing resentment of Canada's 7,000,000 firearms owners. This rally clearly showed that Canada's firearms enthusiasts and their various organizations had finally emerged as a concrete organized opposition that persists to this day. So successful was this rally that it was subsequently followed by the FED UP II rally on September 22, 1998 at which 30,000 people were present. General Comments: The rally staging area was at the extreme north end of Rochester Avenue (Lebreton Flats) across from the present location of the new War Museum. Buses would pull in and drop off protestors from across Canada which were then assembled into a long marching line. The march began at 12 noon in an orderly fashion going east up Wellington Avenue towards the grounds in front of Parliament Hill. Wellington Avenue had been closed off due to the large turnout of marchers. By 11:00 AM there were already 200 people waiting at the Hill. The media had incorrectly stated that the march had failed since only these 200 people were present. This curiously ignored the fact that the main body of protesters were down the street slowly beginning their march up to Parliament Hill. While many people were allowed to speak at the rally including, oddly enough, Liberal Justice Minister Allan Rock, one who was refused a voice was the then leader of the only two remaining Progressive Conservatives, Jean Charest. Organizers generally felt that past offenses to the Canadian Recreational Firearms Community by the previous administration of Progressive Conservative Leader Kim Campbell warranted Mr. Charest's rejection as a speaker at the rally. As a precaution, the RCMP Hill Detachment had been previously notified about the purpose of the rally and security measures organizers already had in place. As well, barricades and a motorcycle escort had been requested from the Ottwawa Police Force which they gladly supplied. There were no incidents. Finally, when finished, participants policed the grounds and left no rubbish. Gouvernment staff commented on how orderly and clean the rally had been. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:56:44 -0500 From: Lee Jasper Subject: More facts and fiction > STRAIGHTGOOD.CA - NOVEMBER 18, 2009 > Gun registry and car insurance changed Canadian politics > Social reform without economic benefits sows seeds for right-wing > populism. > by Ish Theilheimer > > http://www.straightgoods.ca/2009/ViewFeature.cfm?Ref=574&Cookies=yes When did we have a $100 registration fee 'for every gun made'?? > The registry's opponents like to say that it made law-abiding hunters > and farmers feel like victims and criminals. They have tirelessly > promoted that idea in every rural riding. The $100 annual registry fee > for every gun made it especially easy to promote resentment. People in > Richmond Hill do not necessarily understand that many rural people own > as many guns as they themselves own golf clubs. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #564 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)