Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, November 23 2009 Volume 13 : Number 576 In this issue: The Aurora: Editorial: We register cars, why not guns? re: Quebec and the Registry "Report Warned of Violence if Border Guards Armed on Mohawk land" "Report Warned of Violence if Border Guards Armed on Mohawk land" "I think it should be easier...to fire members of the RCMP..." Re: Quebec and the Registry "RCMP shooting third in B.C. north in past two months" Re: "I think it should be easier...to fire members of the RCMP..." letter to StarPhoenix Re: "MLAs snipe over criminal record checks" RE: McGill Daily - Long gun registry under fire ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:05:27 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: The Aurora: Editorial: We register cars, why not guns? http://www.theaurora.ca/index.cfm?sid=305361&sc=303 EDITORIAL: We register cars, why not guns? Last updated at 3:33 PM on 23/11/09 Well, Bill C-391 didn't get shot down, though it should have been. Out of the air in the House of Commons, just like the unfortunate virtual fowls in Super Mario Duck Hunt. We guess that American vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin was around that day in the House of Commons, when the private members' bill, sponsored by Tory MP Candice Hoeppner from Manitoba, passed Nov. 4. The bill in question? To kill the long-gun registry. For people who know nothing about firearms except for those in TV and movie shootouts, long guns are what hunters use to go after game. Bang, bang, critter, I feel like mooseburgers tonight. Yes, many hunters shoot game not just for sport, but for food. We all know how delicious moose and caribou are; sometimes we go duck hunting; sealers use rifles - not clubs, PETA - to kill seals for food and pelts; occasionally hunters even use guns to fend off coyotes. Firearms are also a valuable tool in the arsenal of aboriginals who hunt game to feed families. And anyone who's come across a polar bear knows how ferocious that huge animal can be. If you don't have a rifle in hand and you encounter Ursus maritimus, start saying your prayers. There's nothing wrong with hunting. Animals killed in the wild for eating expire quickly and hunters generally are humane about dispatching their prey. And isn't it better for the critter who roams freely in the wild than the miserable Angus bovine factory farmed in Alberta? Why do I need to register my rifle, asks the hunter. But dangers from some animals and hunting for food shouldn't be the motivation to support a bill sponsored by the Sarah Palin of Canada's West. The Liberals brought in the original registry in the wake of the Montreal Massacre, where a gunman gunned down 13 women 20 years ago. Police associations don't like the move to scrap the registry. Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair says "the elimination of Canada's national firearms licensing and registration system for rifles and shotguns will make Canada less safe." Police officers have every right to like a national registry. When they're responding to dangerous situations, they can find out if the persons involved have guns, and they have more of an idea of what they're up against. Social workers, ditto. In many communities, they sometimes have to remove children from homes because of abuse or because parents and guardians are involved with criminal activities, and they may have firearms. Women's groups, whether they're anti-violence committees, transition house boards or other organizations, generally support the gun registry because they frequently deal with clients who flee abusive situations. Some of the clients have even been threatened with the partner's firearms. Polls show that two-thirds of Canadians support the registry. A waste of money? Setting the thing up cost a lot to do it, but since then, the registry costs less than $9 million a year. An attack on rural lifestyles? Rural people use vehicles, but those machines have to be registered. Why not firearms? It's not an attack on rural lifestyles, but a tool against domestic homicides. When people are killed in those situations, firearms are the preferred tool that one partner uses to dispatch the other. As for "the constituents want it," sorry, but that doesn't wash. We elected you guys and gals for your supposed common sense because some of your constituents don't have any. "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion," said 18th century British statesman Edmund Burke. There are times that our politicians are allowed to think for themselves, and times when their constituents should come second. shickey@advertisernl.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:07:40 -0800 From: "Todd Birch" Subject: re: Quebec and the Registry I recommend a read of "Fearful Symmetry - The Fall & Rise of Canada's Founding Values" - - by Brian Lee Crowley - (Key Porter Books; 2009 ISBN 978-1-55470-188-9) This book ought to be required reading for every Canadian who claims to care about the origins and history of this country and it's "founding values" as opposed to "Liberal Canadian Values" we hear so much about in federal elections. Once you read how much power and money Quebec receives from the federal purse, you will no longer be dismayed by the possible break up of the country if Quebec cededes. In fact, not only will you laugh at the lunacy of such a possibility, you will wholeheartedly urge Quebec to go, telling them once and for all to crap or get off the pot. That will totally disarm the Separatistes, shut them up and restore some sanity to the Canadian federation. Instead, we have the likes of Harper and the CPC sucking up to Quebec for the votes needed to form a majority government. As you know, if a party carries Ontario and gets at least 15 seats in Quebec, they form a majority government. The west simply need not vote. If anyone should separate, it's the west. If this doesn't suggest to you that our 'first-past-the-post' electoral system needs an over haul, perhaps those that have given up voting are the only ones who know what the hell is going on politically. "It has nothing to do with power - it's all about control" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:35:28 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: "Report Warned of Violence if Border Guards Armed on Mohawk land" Subject: "Internal border report warned of violence if guards armed on Mohawk land" What would it be about border guards with guns that violates Mohawk sovereignty that border guards without guns do not? I'll hazard a guess. It might eventually lead to them having the confidence to start enforcing laws against smuggling? Then again, maybe not. http://mikeoncrime.com/article/18850/internal-border-report-warned-of- violence-if-guards-armed-on-mohawk-land ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:35:28 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: "Report Warned of Violence if Border Guards Armed on Mohawk land" Subject: "Internal border report warned of violence if guards armed on Mohawk land" What would it be about border guards with guns that violates Mohawk sovereignty that border guards without guns do not? I'll hazard a guess. It might eventually lead to them having the confidence to start enforcing laws against smuggling? Then again, maybe not. http://mikeoncrime.com/article/18850/internal-border-report-warned-of- violence-if-guards-armed-on-mohawk-land ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:12:33 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: "I think it should be easier...to fire members of the RCMP..." Subject: "I think it should be easier for us to fire members of the RCMP..."- RCMP Commissioner William Elliott Interesting, is it about time or is it too little, too late? ================================================== "I think it should be easier for us to fire members of the RCMP where that's appropriate," said RCMP Commissioner William Elliott http://www.leaderpost.com/should+easier+fire+officers+RCMP+head/2254667/story.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:37:29 -0500 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Quebec and the Registry This discussion has taken place on here over several days and I, for one, have ALWAYS advocated Quebec to leave Confederation They have for many years recieved more money each year than what the Feds take in form them in taxes, but they still owe their share of the national debt, as well as give up their Canadian passports ,OAS ,and EI.(I believe they have their own pension plan. If as they say they want to keep the gun registry fine I say , but they pay for it not the Candian taxpayer. I have said on here previuosly that they should have six months to either go or stay , either way the decision will be irreversible. Its a win -win situation for Canada if they go, first no more traitors trying to break up the country and all the money we will save . ed/on - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Birch" To: Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:07 PM Subject: re: Quebec and the Registry >I recommend a read of "Fearful Symmetry - The Fall & Rise of Canada's > Founding Values" > - by Brian Lee Crowley - (Key Porter Books; 2009 ISBN 978-1-55470-188-9) > > > This book ought to be required reading for every Canadian who claims to > care about the origins and history of this country and it's "founding > values" as opposed to "Liberal Canadian Values" we hear so much about in > federal elections. > > Once you read how much power and money Quebec receives from the federal > purse, you will no longer be dismayed by the possible break up of the > country if Quebec cededes. > > In fact, not only will you laugh at the lunacy of such a possibility, you > will wholeheartedly urge Quebec to go, telling them once and for all to > crap or get off the pot. That will totally disarm the Separatistes, shut > them up and restore some sanity to the Canadian federation. > > Instead, we have the likes of Harper and the CPC sucking up to Quebec for > the votes needed to form a majority government. > As you know, if a party carries Ontario and gets at least 15 seats in > Quebec, they form a majority government. The west simply need not vote. > > If anyone should separate, it's the west. > > If this doesn't suggest to you that our 'first-past-the-post' electoral > system needs an over haul, perhaps those that have given up voting are the > only ones who know what the hell is going on politically. > > > "It has nothing to do with power - it's all about control" > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:51:48 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: "RCMP shooting third in B.C. north in past two months" Northern B.C. can be a rough and dangerous place, and I hesitate to second guess without more information, but the description of the farmer who had not shot at anyone or threatened to do so, doesn't sound like the justified use of deadly force in the Criminal Code. Secondly, since they had him surrounded holed up in his house for several days, disabling his vehicle, or planting spike belts in front of the garage, or where ever it was parked would have been a good idea. Of course, after posting this idea, I expect those in charge of SWAT/ ERT teams are now on to be advised of this by their colleagues who monitor this Digest. :) Preventing and avoiding the use of deadly force whenever possible is an objective of a Peace Officer. For the Armed Forces on the battlefield, not so much. We do have to try to retain the distinction. - ---- "RCMP shooting third in B.C. north in past two months" By Richard J. Dalton Jr., with files from Janet Steffenhagen, Vancouver Sun November 23, 2009 http://www.vancouversun.com/news/RCMP+shooting+third+north+past+months/2255674/story.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:00:58 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: "I think it should be easier...to fire members of the RCMP..." - --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Larry James Fillo wrote: > From: Larry James Fillo > Subject: "I think it should be easier...to fire members of the RCMP..." > To: cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca > Received: Monday, November 23, 2009, 5:12 PM > Subject: "I think it should be easier > for us to fire members of the > RCMP..."- RCMP Commissioner William Elliott I think it should be easier to charge and convict cops who commit crimes, rather than have them escape justice by merely "resigning"... Yours in TYRANNY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:04:21 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: letter to StarPhoenix Re: "MLAs snipe over criminal record checks" letter sent Nov. 20, 2009, unpublished [MLAs snipe over criminal record checks] http://www.thestarphoenix.com/MLAs+snipe+over+criminal+record+checks/2239454/story.html I read, MLAs snipe over criminal record checks. Opposition NDP digs up old charges against Boyd., By Angela Hall, Saskatchewan News Network; Regina Leader-Post, November 19, 2009 I agree with Mr. Morgan's strong assertion, "That minister (Boyd), and each and every member of our country, is entitled to a presumption of innocence". We just don't have enough of this line of reasoning. To steal a quote, the presumption of innocence are the most sublime words in the English language. They also make up a Charter right, "11. Any person charged with an offence has the right d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal". Mr. Morgan quickly unveils this Charter right in support of his colleague, Minister Boyd, as he should. But where is Mr. Morgan and the Sask Party govt. when we look at Charter right "offending" legislation which they support. The provincial Seizure of Criminal Property Act comes to mind. The Sask. Party govt supports the seizure of goods they suspect were ill-gotten. Police in Sask. merely need to think a person possesses proceeds of crime such as cash, homes, and other property before they can seize the property. Also, Mr. Morgan accepts the licensing requirements of Firearms Act of 1995. This unjust Act forces innocent firearms owners not only to endure police background checks, but also many intrusive questions in addition to the forfeiture of several rights such as; their right to property, their right to unreasonable search and seizure, their right to privacy, their right to counsel upon arrest or detention, their right to freedom of expression, their right to arms for their defense, equality rights, and of course their right to a presumption of innocence. Mr. Morgan quickly loses consistancy to the application of the presumption of innocence when he treats Minister Boyd so fairly but others --- well -- so unfairly. "Each and every member of our country, is entitled to a presumption of innocence". Yours in Tyranny, Joe Gingrich White Fox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:45:31 -0500 From: TONY KATZ Subject: RE: McGill Daily - Long gun registry under fire my attempted response to this post; This is university paper and I assume you have access to resources that can explain statistics to you and follow trend lines. The murder rate in canada has been declining for 20 years longer than we have had this gun control law due to demographics. The trend has been consistent so the law has had no effect. Suicide by firearm has been reduced but the suicide rate is unchanged, but wendy and heidi feel hanging and pills are more acceptable for their purposes. You have history students have them do some research on the history behind the passage of this law. You will find that every problem that we foresaw with this legislation came to pass from cost and error rate to non compliance. We were ridiculed as redneck buffoons by the liberals, NDP, Bloc and the main stream media while they used false stats and outright lies to push this through. In the 70's the Trudeau govt looked at gun registration and after considerable research found canada had between 6 and 8 million gun owners and between 14 and 20 million firearms. They concluded that a law of this type would have a low compliance rate and a high cost. They were right, Rocks 2 million dollar program ballooned to 2 billion and counting with a compliance rate of 30 to 50 percent. Any police officer that relies on information retrieved from the registry is bucking for a darwin award. You have law students have them read all of chapter 39 of the criminal code of canada and see how many time it violates our basic rights from the right to silence to the need for a warrant. When I was interviewed by a CBC reporter at the Fedup II rally and complained of these violations she asked what I wanted and I told her I at least wanted the same rights as a convicted pedophile and still do. The dawson college incident was committed with a registered rifle. While firearms can be very dangerous if misused the same is true of many other everyday items around us. I know I can construct a variety of explosive and or incendiary devices out of ordinary household materials, you have chemistry students check with them. There are no dangerous weapons only dangerous people. Trying to control inanimate objects is a waste of resources. Firearms are a 19th century technology, rudimentary but effective ones can and have been produced in primitive shops with simple tools. Go through the process of getting your licence and buy a firearm to see the process for yourself, see the time and effort required to do it legally, then try to buy one illegally, if you know the right people(say a local drug dealer, they are on campus too) you will find the latter way quicker and easier. > Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:31:27 -0800 > From: akimoya@yahoo.ca > Subject: McGill Daily - Long gun registry under fire > To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca > > http://www.mcgilldaily.com/articles/23126 > > Long gun registry under fire > Opponents say proposed legislation threatens public safety > > By Stephen Davis > Published: 9:56 am > > Twenty-one members of the opposition are supporting the Conservative > Party's bid to pass Bill C-391, a move that would eliminate the federal > long gun registry. > > Supporters of the bill say the registry is overly complicated and punishes > responsible hunters in rural communities, where stringent registration is > unnecessary. > > C-391 passed its second reading November 4 with support from all > Conservatives, as well as eight Liberals and 12 New Democrats. The bill > will now be reviewed by a group of parliamentarians. > > New Democrat Nathan Cullen, who represents a riding in northern British > Columbia, echoed the view that the registry is difficult to navigate when > he explained why he voted to eliminate the registry. "The people that I > listen to are what I would call the more reasonable elements of the gun > community…. They hunt once a year. They bring me these stories of trying > to register a weapon four, five, six times," he said. > > If passed, the proposed legislation would eliminate the 10-year-old long > gun registry, along with all existing information on approximately seven > million long guns - weapons like rifles and shotguns. The registry for > handguns, however, would remain in place. > > Larry Bagnell, the Liberal MP for the Yukon and the official opposition > critic for northern affairs, also voted to scrap the registry. He spoke of > his constituents’ difficulties registering long guns. "[When registering a > car] you spend about 30 seconds at the counter and it's done. To register > a gun, some of these people have had to run around for months and months," > Bagnell said. > > Wendy Cukier, president and co-founder of the Coalition for Gun Control, > contended that supporters of C-391 have misrepresented the registration > process. "[Registry opponents have] successfully conflated licensing - > which is more cumbersome - with registration," Cukier said. > > Obtaining a firearm license involves classes, written and practical > examinations, and background checks, while registering a firearm involves > filing forms that can be submitted online or by mail. > > Still, Bagnell's and Cullen's views are illustrative of strong opposition > to the registry in rural communities. > > Many members of the opposition who voted to scrap the registry represent > ridings outside of major urban centres. > > The long and short of it > > Cullen distinguished between handguns and long guns based on utility. "We > deem handguns to have a different purpose than a long gun," he said. "A > handgun…is not a tool - it's a weapon." However, the Commissioner of > Firearms' Annual Report of 2008 casts this distinction in doubt. The > report states that outside urban centres, long guns are the most common > weapons used in homicides. > > Heidi Rathjen, co-founder of the Coalition for Gun Control, who became an > involved gun control activist after being present during the 1989 massacre > at École Polytechnique, said the current distinction between long guns and > handguns fails to account for particularly dangerous weapons. > > They both pointed to the Ruger Mini-14, the semi-automatic rifle used by > Marc Lépine during the massacre at École Polytechnique in Montreal in > 1989. > > Classified as a long gun, the Mini-14 is capable of firing the same > ammunition as the M-16 rifle used by NATO troops. The Mini-14 is regularly > stocked at firearms stores in the Montreal area. > > "If this legislation becomes reality you will be able to buy not one but > 50 Ruger Mini-14s and no one will know you have them," Cukier said. > "Something like the M-16 uses NATO-standard ammunition and…we saw the > results at [École] Polytechnique." > > Rathjen expressed similar frustration and anxiety. "We believe this is a > military assault weapon…. What kind of a hunter needs 30-bullet ammunition > clips?" she asked. > > Those backing C-391 point to the high cost of the gun registry. > > A 2002 report from the auditor general showed that the cost of gun > registration would hit $1 billion by 2005. > > But Cukier emphasized the significance of a 2006 report from the auditor > general, which stated that since most guns in Canada have already been > registered, eliminating the gun registry would only save taxpayers $3 > million a year. > > "Most of the cost is associated with licensing and registering gun > owners," Cukier said. > > Bagnell added that despite the costs, his constituents are not worried > about money. > > "It's not the money. It's a point of principle. They see it as an > infringement on their freedoms and their rights," Bagnell said. > > Hunting for hits > > Cullen stated that there is an important difference in the way members of > rural and urban communities handle firearms. "For somebody who hunts…they > associate to [firearms] differently. They're part of their set of tools. > It's something I've had to learn as an urban-born Canadian," he said. > > Closer to home, proponents of gun control contend that the dissolution of > the registry will endanger members of both urban and rural communities. > Rathjen said that she sees the registry as a useful tool in reducing gun > violence, especially violence against women. > > "The long gun registry is one of the reasons why…murders of women with > firearms have decreased substantially," Rathjen said. She pointed to a > Statistics Canada report, which states that murders of women with firearms > per year decreased from 85 in 1991 to 32 in 2005. > > The online registry also allows police to search for a person's name, > address, firearms' license number, or a firearms’ serial number, and > access other relevant information. However, Bagnell, who expressed doubt > that the registry is an effective means of curbing firearm violence, was > unconvinced of the important role it could play as a consultative tool for > police officers arriving at a potentially dangerous scene. > > “They always have to assume that there could be firearms there,” said > Bagnell. > > Cullen agreed. "When you talk to a lot of the police that work in my part > of the world, they always assume a weapon is in a home that they are being > called to," he said. > > The Commissioner of Firearms' 2008 report stated that the online registry > was consulted by law enforcement 3,441,442 times that year. Supporters of > C-391 claim these numbers are inflated, because a hit is counted anytime > the police use the registry - even for license plate numbers. > > Earlier this month, journalists in a media scrum criticized Public Safety > Minister Peter Van Loan for releasing the report two days after the House > voted on C-391. The registry contains information on the 6,659,534 > registered long guns and 478,487 registered restricted firearms in Canada. > > For Rathjen, the number of firearms and consultations provided sufficient > reason to maintain the registry. "[Police] say they need the registry and > that they use it on a daily basis for a range of reasons. That's good > enough for me," she said. > > Opponents of the registry maintain that it is ineffective in quelling > firearm violence. > > "No one's offered one shred of evidence…in my riding…that it's effective > at reducing gun crime," Bagnell said. > > Mark Holland, the Liberal opposition critic for public safety and national > security, voted against C-391. He pointed to the fatal shooting of four > RCMP officers in Mayerthorpe, Alberta in 2005. > > Both Holland and Cukier argued that a registered firearm left at the scene > was instrumental in convicting the shooter. > > "That conviction was made possible because of the gun registry," Holland > said. > > Cukier was concerned that support will continue for C-391 as those > supporting rigourous long gun control remain apathetic. "If I came to > McGill and I said…...How many think we should license gun owners? How many > think we should register guns?" most people would raise their hands. And > if I said "How many have done anything about it?" most people look at > their shoes." > ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #576 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)