Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, April 19 2010 Volume 13 : Number 816 In this issue: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Could she? important info Re: RCMP Incident at Club Range Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Gun-Rights Advocates Open a New Front RE: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation MINISTER OF PUBLIC SAFETY "DIRECTS" THE RCMP F Let CTF be gun registry witness Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Liberals to Whip vote on C-391 Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #813 Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Re: Could she? Re: "if it saves even one life, doesn't that justify it?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:50:59 -0400 From: Dan Haggarty Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation bletchleypark wrote: > [...] > By the way, does one need an PAL to purchase a crossbow? > I believe the correct answer is 'not yet'. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 08:53:00 -0700 From: Len Miller Subject: Could she? Cc: Castanet , Globe Mail , Candice Hoeppner , glover.S@parl.gc.ca Reporter Gerry Warner posted the hopes and dreams of yet another nanny stater hopeful: Rhonda Barter . . Rhonda brightly espouses the hoax of 'gun control' She says ''IF it saves one life''. That it has cost $2.5 billions ? not on her radar. That it was brought in to compensate for the loss of RCAF Stn, Chatham NB employees jobs. as a political ploy ? . . duh! That it has cost lives: Bob and Bonnie Dagenais, Ray Michaelson and Jack Gentles ( who are they??) But . it has created paper criminals out of hundreds of thousands of previously law-abiding citizens . . ( see John Dixon's . . 'the gang that couldn't' ) only points out the abysmal ignorance on the part of a political tyro. No, folks, 30 years as a police officer only created an angry old man, who yells at the TV, and occasionally writes a rebuttal to yet another political hopeful who hasn't a clue on the subject of guns . . Len Miller Det retired Vancouver Police Department ======================== THE CRANBROOK DAILY TOWNSMAN - APRIL 19, 2010 Creston woman seeking NDP nomination BY GERRY WARNER, GERRY@DAILYTOWNSMAN.COM http://www.dailytownsman.com/article/20100419/CRANBROOK0101/304199976/-1/cra nbrook/creston-woman-seeking-ndp-nomination A Creston woman has announced her intention to seek the NDP nomination for the Kootenay-Columbia Riding as the battle to succeed MP Jim Abbott continues to heat up. Rhonda Barter is a Creston businesswoman, a musician, an actor in the local theatre community and a single-mother of three children over the age of 17. A self-described "enthusiastic person," Barter said she's always been interested in politics and is getting involved now because she "feels it's the right thing to do." She sought the NDP nomination in Nelson- Creston in the last provincial election and now has decided to take the plunge federally. "If good people don't fight for their rights and fight against injustice, we're really hooped," she says. "From a very young age, my mother instilled a keen sense of service in me. Actually this is why I joined the NDP. I see it as the party that cares the most for people." Barter says in today's society there is too much of a contrast between the rich and the poor. ## Poverty exists everywhere, even in the Kootenays, where the last census in 2006 pegged the average single-person income in Creston at $19,000, she says. "I don't think there should be street people here. I don't think there should be seniors living in poverty. That's why I'm doing this. We're becoming a land of no middle class." In seeking the NDP nod, Barter says she will emphasize her passion for helping people, especially seniors, young people, the homeless and victims of injustice in society. She says education is the key to curing many of the ills of society, adding she is pleased to see more children from Bountiful attending public school and others integrating in the community. Barter also supports the federal gun registry. "We register cars, boats, births, marriages, deaths. It's just a registry for God's sake. The police use # it thousands of times every day and if it saves even one life, doesn't that justify it?" ( Len sez . . Yes IF, but it hasn't 'saved' any . . you can't use a hypothetical . . to prove a hypothetical ) The NDP hopeful has already been busy touring the riding, talking to people and attending meetings even though she's not an official candidate yet because the party hasn't yet held it's nomination meeting. But she's the only candidate at this point and she intends to pursue the nomination with all her ample energy. "Life belongs to those who show up and do the work,"she says in typical fashion, adding she intends to keep working for the NDP nomination until the nomination meeting is held most likely in the fall. The only other official candidate in the race is Sparwood Mayor David Wilks, who is seeking the Conservative nomination. However former NDP member Brent Bush of Kimberly has indicated he's interested in running for the Liberal nomination. As an NDP'er, Bush ran twice against Abbott, finishing second both times. # No, they don't. ## Which is why she feels qualified to speak up on guns ? And a good day to the Editor of the Globe and Mail . . . have you tried the loaded gun/pit bull test yet? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:02:10 -0400 From: TONY KATZ Subject: important info this shows the dangers of registration and how government can use laws in ways they were not intended http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/Halbrook_macro_final_3_29.pdf AsstMod: RAM: This is a very long (100 pages) of essay and is too long to post here. Sorry to the dial-up subscribers. Those with Hi-Speed, this is a good read. I've read it before, so maybe it has been Posted before. It would then be worth re-reading. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:43:51 -0700 From: "Todd Birch" Subject: Re: RCMP Incident at Club Range John We aren't discussing the differences between IPSC shooting and whatever term the police use for their program. IPSC shooting is a sport. In a gunfight, the only rule is survival. On a public range shared with others, there are many rules, and they will be obeyed or there will be consequences - nothwithstanding that someone was shot because someone else was having a 'bad day'. The 'rules' are there for safety, insurance liability and legality. The gun handling that we have witnessed on many occasions is dangerous; i.e. dropping a loaded pistol from the shooting position to point towards one's feet because the shooter is 'tired'; inserting a loaded magazine into a gun while walking towards people, etc. We have established that you believe that people experiencing 'bad days' have to be cut some slack and that the 'rules' of safe gun handling don't apply to the RCMP on private club property. I presume that we can apply the 'bad day' rule to incidents of road rage as well. I asked you what more we could have done at the time to make our point. You declined. If instructing neophyte shooters constitutes a stressful situation for this FBI, he is in the wrong game. It was a controlled situation and the target was a paper silhouette, not a gunman returning fire. He can suffer from "human fraility" elsewhere and perhaps obtain counselling from someone with a five year degree. When the RCMP repeatedly investigates and exonerates itself, the 'optics' are that it answers to no one. We weren't talking about "practice vs "practice", but "practice" vs "training". You missed that. Want me to explain it again? What part of "... reiterating the terms of the understanding between the club and the RCMP ..." was not clear to you? They knew from the get-go what they were and are going to be reminded in yet another letter and likely a personal meeting with club executive officers. Lastly, no, I do not accept that the RCMP can use unapproved ranges for the discharge of restricted weapons. Unless, of course, they are exempt the 'rules' and answer only to themselves. Please cite the exemption from the Criminal Code. My ATT clearly states that I may only use my restricted firearms on an "approved range", not even my own property. [AsstMod: RAM: As I read this, I get the impression this could devolve into an insulting personal argument of the kind that doesn't belong on this Forum. However, I'll let it pass, and John can reply. If this thread deteriorates into just personal insults or attacks; further Posts RE: This Thread "might" be deleted without further Notice or be sent to CHAT.] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:47:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation - --- On Sun, 4/18/10, bletchleypark wrote: > Ex-cuuuse me but isn't the T-97 a bullpup design? Wasn't > the bullpup already PROHIBITED by C-68? The bullpup *stock* has been prohibited by OIC; this does not include guns that come with the bullpup stock as an integral part of the design of the gun (except the evil G22, that is). Yours in TYRANNY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:08:50 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: Gun-Rights Advocates Open a New Front http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/19/gun-rights-advocates-open-new/?test=latestnews April 19, 2010 Gun-Rights Advocates Open a New Front The Wall Street Journal Saying NRA isn't imaginative, splinter groups seek more aggressive tactic. Some gun owners, saying that the National Rifle Association isn't battling hard enough for their rights, are taking the fight into their own hands. The 4.3 million-member NRA, one of the most powerful and well-funded lobbying groups in Washington, has for 35 years dominated the push to expand gun rights. But its strategies aren't aggressive or imaginative enough for some gun owners who want to openly carry holstered pistols in public places, or to exploit loopholes in state gun laws to purchase semi-automatic rifles. They are coming together in smaller, loosely organized groups that recruit on the Internet and find inspiration from the tea party movement. On Monday, several thousand gun owners plan to mount two protests-a march in Washington and an "open-carry" rally in Mount Vernon, Va. "More and more the gun-rights movement is moving toward a stand-up-and-shout approach," said Jeff Knox, director of the Firearms Coalition, a for-profit, loose-knit coalition of activists. "There's a lot of general frustration with NRA not taking a hard enough line." Data on how many owners are joining the splinter groups are scant, because many are newly organized, and tend to seek contributions over formal memberships. In addition, some gun owners join more than one group. Mr. Knox estimated that the splinter groups had one million to 1.5 million members or regular contributors. The NRA is "no longer absolutely the 800-pound gorilla" in the pro-gun movement, said Gary Marbut, a life member of the NRA and president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, an NRA affiliate. "The NRA is running the risk of becoming insignificant, of fading into the background." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 17:28:05 +0000 From: Trigger Mortis Subject: RE: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation The crossbow was originally included in the firearms license as a non-restricted item. It was never declared in force and still is not part of the licensing system to my knowledge. So to answer your question no license required for the crossbow. THAT is for the full size crossbow. There was a dinky pistol type of crossbow which is a prohibited weapon. I think that is courtesy of Kim Campbell. As I understand the bullpup question the law states that you cannot convert a regular stock long-gun to bull-pup configuration by installing a bull-pup stock. If it comes from the factory as a bull-pup gun then there is no conversion and therefore not prohibited. I will be attending provincial court tomorrow in Kingston Ontario re the revocation of my registration certificate for my High Standard model 10B shotgun (bull-pup stock from the factory). That's at courtroom #3279 Wellington St. I expect to be in and out in 5 minutes. It is the first hearing and I expect that it will be transferred to federal court so adjournment is expected. I have been advised not to talk about the case until it is settled. Rest assured I will have plenty to say then. Alan Harper alan__harper@hotmail.com SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM ************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, April 19, 2010 12:14 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: MINISTER OF PUBLIC SAFETY "DIRECTS" THE RCMP Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Just in case anyone thinks the RCMP acted alone in their reclassification and confiscation scheme, please see this excerpt from the RCMP's own website: RCMP Organizational Structure http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/about-ausujet/organi-eng.htm The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is organized under the authority of the RCMP Act. In accordance with the Act, it is headed by the Commissioner, who, under the direction of the Minister of Public Safety Canada, has the control and management of the Force and all matters connected therewith. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:04:18 -0700 From: Len Miller Subject: F Let CTF be gun registry witness Begin forwarded message: > From: > Date: April 19, 2010 10:01:35 AM PDT (CA) > To: > Subject: RE: Let CTF be gun registry witness > > Dear Mr. Miller, > > On behalf of the Conservative Members of the Standing Committee on > Public Safety, we would like to take this opportunity to thank you > for your email on the very important issue of the repeal of the > long-gun registry. > > Bill C-391 is a Private Member's Bill sponsored by Conservative MP > Candice Hoeppner. > > We agree with you that the long-gun registry is not good value for > taxpayers' money. The initial cost estimates of the long-gun > registry have been dwarfed by the actual cost. > > We support the CTF's request to appear before the Committee on > Public Safety. We thank you and the CTF for your continued support. > > Sincere regards, > > Conservative Members of the Public Safety Committee: > > Garry Breitkreuz, Chair of the Standing Committee on Public Safety, > MP for Yorkton - Melville > Dave MacKenzie, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public > Safety, MP for Oxford > Brent Rathgeber, MP for Edmonton - St. Albert > Rick Norlock, MP for Northumberland - Quinte West > Shelly Glover, MP for Saint Boniface > Phil McColeman, MP for Brant > > -----Original Message----- > From: Len Miller [mailto:roadrunner144@telus.net] > Sent: April 1, 2010 12:29 PM > To: Breitkreuz, Garry - M.P.; Davies, Don - M.P.; Desnoyers, Luc - > Député; Glover, Shelly - M.P.; Holland, Mark - M.P.; Kania, Andrew - > M.P.; MacKenzie, Dave - M.P.; McColeman, Phil - M.P.; Mourani, Maria > - Députée; Norlock, Rick - M.P.; Rathgeber, Brent - M.P.; > Wrzesnewskyj, Borys - M.P. > Subject: Let CTF be gun registry witness > > Let a veteran of Canada's military > and a 30 year police officer, retired > put in his two cents : > He does not . .HE DOES NOT support licencing . . > He does support registration . > For those who fail to see the distinction . . > Registration IS GOOD FOR LIFE while > licencing EXPIRES . . > CALL ME for any question this doesn't answer . . > > 604 321 3561 > > Len Miller > Vancouver. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:09:24 -0300 From: Al Muir Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:00:08 -0400 > From: "bletchleypark" > Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation > > To All: > By the way, does one need an PAL to purchase a crossbow? > > Peter No ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:09:18 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Liberals to Whip vote on C-391 Dennis posted; http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100419/gun_registry_1=00419/20100419?hub=3DQPeriod > > Ignatieff says Liberals must vote against Tory gun law > > The Canadian Press Date: Monday Apr. 19, 2010 11:09 AM ET > > OTTAWA Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff says he'll require his caucus > to oppose the next vote to scrap the controversial long-gun > registry. But Ignatieff said his MPs must toe the party line next > vote. > > "This is a government bill that doesn't have the courage to say it's > a government bill. And we will whip it," he told a news conference > after the speech. > Ignatieff said his party is proposing "sensible" changes that address > concerns from some of his own MPs while upholding the integrity of > the registry. Among the proposals are: first-time failures to > register firearms would be treated as a simple, non-criminal > ticketing offence instead of a criminal offence. . . [[previously noted by this scribe]. - -- What did I forecast, after the horror and outcry over the murder of OPP Const. Vu Pham? Pity C-301 ended in the dumpster, you get few chances in life and this one had legs, until it went awry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:21:45 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Dennis posted: > Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation > > Just in case anyone thinks the RCMP acted alone in their reclassification > and confiscation scheme, please see this excerpt from the RCMP's own > website: > > RCMP Organizational Structure > http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/about-ausujet/organi-eng.htm > > The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is organized under the authority of the > RCMP Act . In accordance with the Act, it is headed by the Commissioner, > who, under the direction of the Minister of Public Safety Canada, has the > control and management of the Force and *all matters* connected > therewith. Thanks. This appears to confirm what I had assiduously postulated. But is there a further link which directly outs the sticky fingered CPC politician/Minister who triggered the Mountie action? I previously lambasted our feckless gov't; pity they weren't as attentive to their stormtroopers whacking citizens with juiced-up Tasers. I thought as does Peter; weren't the T97s banned/prohibited a long time ago? Does the current action signal an end to a wink, wink situation? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:24:45 -0400 From: br8boss@xcelco.on.ca Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #813 Hello MrEd, Bruce, and Jonn R.. Ed. I see below Bruce answered your Query. John R, Would you please answer Ed's Question? As I would very much like to know further your knowledge and source of information in this area. this would also be benificial to all suscribers, could it be that you have training in law inforcement. Thanking you in advance John R. Yours truly, Hugh Evers > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 17:24:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bruce Mills > Subject: Re: Searchs > > - --- On Sat, 4/17/10, MrEd wrote: > > > From: MrEd > > Thank you for your lucid response. > > > > Could you please site precedent and relative law concerning this????? > > It would be a great help.......... > > Thanks. > > ed/on > > Sorry, I don't have anything handy, but it does come from several court > decisions about what constitutes a "reasonable" search, that I've > absorbed over the years. If I find anything, I'll let you know. > > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:02:10 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation Good luck and all success in your endeavor...ed/on - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trigger Mortis" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 1:28 PM Subject: RE: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation > The crossbow was originally included in the firearms license as a > non-restricted item. It was never declared in force and still is not > part > of the licensing system to my knowledge. So to answer your question no > license required for the crossbow. THAT is for the full size crossbow. > There was a dinky pistol type of crossbow which is a prohibited weapon. I > think that is courtesy of Kim Campbell. > > As I understand the bullpup question the law states that you cannot > convert a regular stock long-gun to bull-pup configuration by installing > a > bull-pup stock. If it comes from the factory as a bull-pup gun then there > is no conversion and therefore not prohibited. > > I will be attending provincial court tomorrow in Kingston Ontario re the > revocation of my registration certificate for my High Standard model 10B > shotgun (bull-pup stock from the factory). That's at courtroom #3279 > Wellington St. > > I expect to be in and out in 5 minutes. It is the first hearing and I > expect that it will be transferred to federal court so adjournment is > expected. I have been advised not to talk about the case until it is > settled. Rest assured I will have plenty to say then. > > Alan Harper > > alan__harper@hotmail.com > > SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM > > ************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:05:04 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation I`ve heard so much about this "bull-pup " design stock but don't know what it looks like ? has someone got a picture they could post ? ed/on - ----- Original Message ----------------------- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 12:47 PM Subject: Re: T-97s, Confiscation and Compensation >> Ex-cuuuse me but isn't the T-97 a bullpup design? Wasn't >> the bullpup already PROHIBITED by C-68? > > The bullpup *stock* has been prohibited by OIC; this does not include > guns that come with the bullpup stock as an integral part of the design > of the gun (except the evil G22, that is). > > Yours in TYRANNY! > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:09:18 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Could she? I like your attitude Len, but it's not just about guns ? It's about the right to own property, any property, and THATS what its all about. If we had property rights we wouldnt be in this constant battle for our own property (guns) ...ed/on - ----- Original Message --------------------------------- From: "Len Miller" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:53 AM Subject: Could she? > Reporter Gerry Warner posted the hopes and dreams > of yet another nanny stater hopeful: Rhonda Barter . . > > Rhonda brightly espouses the hoax of 'gun control' > > She says ''IF it saves one life''. > > That it has cost $2.5 billions ? not on her radar. > That it was brought in to compensate for the > loss of RCAF Stn, Chatham NB employees jobs. > as a political ploy ? . . duh! > That it has cost lives: Bob and Bonnie Dagenais, > Ray Michaelson and Jack Gentles ( who are they??) > > But . it has created paper criminals out of > hundreds of thousands of previously law-abiding citizens . . > ( see John Dixon's . . 'the gang that couldn't' ) > only points out the abysmal ignorance on the part of a > political tyro. > No, folks, 30 years as a police officer only created > an angry old man, who yells at the TV, and occasionally > writes a rebuttal to yet another political hopeful > who hasn't a clue on the subject of guns . . > > Len Miller > Det retired > Vancouver Police Department > ======================== > Creston woman seeking NDP nomination > BY GERRY WARNER, GERRY@DAILYTOWNSMAN.COM > http://www.dailytownsman.com/article/20100419/CRANBROOK0101/304199976/-1/cranbrook/creston-woman-seeking-ndp-nomination > > A Creston woman has announced her intention to seek the NDP nomination > for the Kootenay-Columbia Riding as the battle to succeed MP Jim Abbott > continues to heat up. Rhonda Barter is a Creston businesswoman, a > musician, an actor in the local theatre community and a single-mother of > three children over the age of 17. >snip< > Barter also supports the federal gun registry. "We register cars, boats, > births, marriages, deaths. It's just a registry for God's sake. The > police use # it thousands of times every day and if it saves even one > life, doesn't that justify it?" ( Len sez . . Yes IF, but it hasn't > 'saved' any . . you can't use a hypothetical . . to prove a > hypothetical ) >snip< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:11:22 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: "if it saves even one life, doesn't that justify it?" May G-D help us from the NDP women in politics including Bob Rae. ed/on - ----- Original Message ------------------------------------ From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" To: "Firearms Digest" Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 4:25 AM Subject: NDP: "if it saves even one life, doesn't that justify it?" > Creston woman seeking NDP nomination > BY GERRY WARNER, GERRY@DAILYTOWNSMAN.COM > http://www.dailytownsman.com/article/20100419/CRANBROOK0101/304199976/-1/cranbrook/creston-woman-seeking-ndp-nomination > > A Creston woman has announced her intention to seek the NDP nomination > for > the Kootenay-Columbia Riding as the battle to succeed MP Jim Abbott > continues to heat up. Rhonda Barter is a Creston businesswoman, a > musician, an actor in the local theatre community and a single-mother of > three children over the age of 17. >snipped< ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #816 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)