Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, August 28 2010 Volume 14 : Number 019 In this issue: negotiating.. Toronto Star is Mapping Gun Owners & Hunters in Toronto CFRB - Smitherman to Push for Handgun Ban womens groups and womens rights G&M - Conservatives exploit urban/rural divide over long-gun mykawartha.com - Firearm registry a vital tool: chief Re: Man faces charges after home attacked with Molotov cocktails Re: Former police chief, remains opposed to the long-gun registry Re: THREE LETTERS ON THE GUN REGISTRY Re: Charter rights Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #16 Re: Peer reviewed articles in medical journals Re: Vancouver Sun - We need to know if long-gun registry works Will he or won't he ...? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:12:01 -0500 From: "Live to Ride" Subject: negotiating.. > replies "yes" - he then asks "would you sleep with me for $20.00?" to > which > she replies, "No, what do you think I am, a whore?" and he remarks "We've > already established that - now we're negotiating." HA HA Good one Walter.. Don't remeber hearing that one before! Scottie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:06:45 -0400 From: Subject: Toronto Star is Mapping Gun Owners & Hunters in Toronto Would be simpler to have the TORSTAR map out those homes that Do NOT have firearms so as to make crime easier on the criminals . Of course those without might scream blue murder , and then demand guns for their protection... Hmm this has possibility ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:57:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: CFRB - Smitherman to Push for Handgun Ban http://www.newstalk1010.com/news/565/1195084 Smitherman to Push for Handgun Ban Fri, 2010-08-27 15:24. Katie Franzios After the Toronto Police Services Board unanimously reaffirmed their support for the long gun registry and council have it their thumbs up, mayoral candidate George Smitherman says he's prepared to continue David Miller's push for a handgun ban. Smitherman explains that it's part of Toronto's responsibility to make its voice heard when it comes to safety, even though this would be a federal issue. He says despite crime stats going down. people are still nervous. Which is why Smitherman wants to find cash to put more officers out on the street. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:58:59 -0400 From: Subject: womens groups and womens rights Women ad hoc committee has said that women have the most to lose if the long gun registry is scrapped. They trot out how when they call 911, the Police will know if there are guns. Please women use the heads god gave you for something other than to prattle the line from the colaition from gun control. It was the women's movement that targeted gun owners, a predominantly make sport where the vast majority of firearms are owned by males. It was the feel gooders that used the excuse of Marc Lepine to make sure Bill C68 got passed. Again this was done against men . Seems this group like to target men for specific discrimination. Let us look further. These same women who say that when they call 911... 911 when you need the police how far away are they. I can tell you at least ten to 20 minutes away. That is a long time since most violent confrontations are over in 45 seconds or less. But women are rather two faced in this respect. They want to attack law abiding male firearms owners because of Marc Lepine, yet they want the Police (another male dominated thug group) to save them. I might be so bold as to suggest that women stop being victims and start taking their own security and well being into their own hands. Women will tell you every excuse under the sun. I am too busy, too tired after work, the kids, the husband, the boyfriend, my period etc etc. All excuses for not having to accept responsibility for their own safety, and to abrogate that responsibility and let someone else deal with it. Pity. More women are assaulted needlessly because they play the role of professional victim which of course is encourage by the Police (don't take the law into your own hands or else) Women have bought into this claptrap hook line and sinker. I once watched a rowdy fella grab a woman by the arm and pull her. She turned into him and punched him in the throat. In three seconds or less he was crumpled on the pavement . No ball kicks just a solid punch in the throat. When someone suggested she stick around for eh Police, her reply was "screw you do you think I am stupid" She ran away and went home I hope. Pity we have to fear the police in such situations. But you see they are the problem. They will not allow men or women the means to protect themselves that is the one single means to stop any attack effectively. That is a concealed carry. Why. Because they get paid to provide protection even though it is not to us. They tell us a gun can be taken away and used against us. If that was the case, then criminals would be walking around with a lot of service pistols from mugged cops . Of course not The Police tell us they are specially trained. No person other than a POLICE man can ever be trained to retain a firearm .... right!!!!. So we have law enforcement perpetuating the role of professional victim for women who live in fear of men, As a result they want to force the long gun registry to stay because they are afraid of men sometimes men with guns. Victims. When I listen to the Cukiers and Rathjens and Ackermans, I hear victims, victims with deep seated problems. Victims who want other people to be responsible for what happens to them. They do not want to be responsible for their own safety, and as a result they jack us up with their victimhood . This is wrong. Victims are not born that way, they are created. Society, the Police and governments as well as women themselves have done a superb job of creating the new victims. The helpless people who cannot decide if their life is worth protecting so they will let someone they don't know to do it for them. They will let a 90 day wonder with a gun and a badge defend them. I can assure you it takes more than 90 days to be proficient in any type of defence be it hand to hand or with a weapons. I know, I have 35 years as a martial Arts practitioner and Instructor at the master level. What passes for security on our streets rely solely on numbers and their authority. Women should trust themselves more and begin to take back ownership of their personal security and start to actually live instead of hide in fear of men. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:31:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: G&M - Conservatives exploit urban/rural divide over long-gun registry Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/conservatives-exploit-urbanrural-divide-over-long-gun-registry/article1688361/ John Ibbitson WHITEHORSE — From Saturday's Globe and Mail Published on Friday, Aug. 27, 2010 7:55PM EDT Last updated on Saturday, Aug. 28, 2010 11:50AM EDT The North is a great place to be reminded of the dust-up coming next month over the long-gun registry. Prime Minister Stephen Harper rarely got through a speech here during his five-day tour of northern Manitoba and the territories without mentioning the crucial vote over whether to abolish the registry scheduled for when Parliament resumes in September. In Whitehorse on Friday, he was at it again, reminding Conservative partisans of the excruciating choice that Yukon MP Larry Bagnell faces when that vote arrives on Sept. 22. Mr. Bagnell was one of eight Liberal and 12 New Democratic MPs who, in a previous vote, supported a private member’s bill to kill the registry, which is cordially loathed by most voters in rural ridings across Canada, not least in the North. But Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff, under pressure from MPs in urban ridings where the registry is popular, has ordered his MPs to fall into line or face the consequences. The Conservatives are making sport of this. The people of Yukon want “someone who will stand up for the people of this region, people of this territory, respect his word and vote to abolish the long-gun registry,” Mr. Harper declared at a media availability. Mr. Bagnell, who has opposed the long-gun registry every time he was allowed to vote his conscience, faces an impossible choice. If he breaks with his party, he will humiliate his leader, who will punish him accordingly. If he respects the whip, the Conservatives will launch an electoral jihad against him in Yukon, where forcing gun owners to register their shotguns and rifles is seen as tantamount to creating a police state. Ironically, the police are among the most vociferous supporters of the registry, which they use, for example, when they need to know if there are guns in a house to which they have been called for a domestic dispute. But Mr. Harper knows he has the law-and-order vote locked up, whatever the police might say on this particular issue. He knows also that voters in urban ridings – where fears of gun violence are higher – may support keeping the registry, but don’t consider it a ballot question, worrying more about the economy, health care and the environment. The motion to save the registry is most likely to die at the hands of the NDP. Leader Jack Layton refuses to whip the vote. MPs should always vote their conscience on a private member’s bill, he argues. More pointedly, he can’t guarantee that his 12 anti-registry MPs would listen to him. NDP justice critic Joe Comartin is working feverishly to bring the wayward MPs into line. But as of last week, he was still three votes shy, and that assumes Mr. Bagnell and other Liberal MPs stand by their leader. Manitoba Conservative MP Candice Hoeppner, who sponsored the bill to get rid of the registry, has been touring opposition ridings to persuade (or torment) wavering Liberal and NDP MPs. The Conservatives are running ads in the ridings, urging voters to help stiffen their MPs’ spines. The gun registry reflects a seemingly unbridgeable divide between rural and urban English Canada. (Support for the registry is higher in Quebec, where all 48 Bloc Québécois MPs support it.) Most urban Canadians can’t understand why hunters and farmers can’t make the effort to register a potentially dangerous weapon. Rural voters, the vast majority of whom are white, don’t understand why people in cities want further restrictions on their way of life and a culture that is under threat as Canada becomes ever more urban and multicultural. The Conservatives happily exploit that divide, in the North and elsewhere. The Liberals and NDP can only suffer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:48:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: mykawartha.com - Firearm registry a vital tool: chief http://www.mykawartha.com/news/article/865894--firearm-registry-a-vital-tool-chief Firearm registry a vital tool: chief Bill looking to abolish federal gun registry to go to House of Commons Sept. 21 By Barbara-Ann MacEachern Files from Mary Riley and Bob Weber Aug 26, 2010 - 8:46 AM With the vote on abolishing the federal firearms registry coming to the House of Commons Sept. 21, police chiefs from across the country are reaffirming their stance on keeping the registry as a useful safety tool for officers and the community. "I don't think it's appropriate for the police to engage in political debate. Our intention is to simply advocate for public safety, to help Canadians understand what we need to do our jobs and to ask for their help," Canadian Association Chiefs of Police president Bill Blair to the Toronto Star Aug. 23. "We need to help them (politicians) understand that this is a tool that we need, that we use every day. And if you take it away from us, you are diminishing our capacity to keep our communities safe." "I am completely in favour of keeping the system in place," Kawartha Lakes Police Chief John Hagarty told This Week. Chief Hagarty pointed out that the issue of the firearms registry has been highly politicized and many opinions are based on old facts. "Part of the problem with the gun registry is the billion dollar start-up cost, which gives it a tarnished image," Chief Hagarty said. Now that the program is running smoothly, at a much lower cost of $4 million a year, he said there is no reason to take away an important tool that helps to keep his officers and the community safe. "Scrapping the federal firearms registry will put our officers at risk and undermine our ability to prevent and solve crimes," said Chief Daniel Parkinson, president of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police in a release. "Our officers use the registry because it is a vital tool in our efforts to prevent and solve crimes. Canadians need facts about the registry, not rhetoric. The bottom line is that the firearms registry helps us keep our communities safe." Police forces use the registry for a number of reasons, Chief Hagarty explained, including making officers aware if there are guns presents in a house when they are executing search warrants, responding to calls or performing investigations. It also allows police officers to trace the origins of guns used in crimes and return stolen guns to their rightful owners. The registry is reportedly checked 11,000 times a day by officers across the country, and locally, Chief Hagarty said he wouldn't be surprised if his officers made use of the registry at least once a day, though he did not have the exact numbers immediately. "It's certainly information we wouldn't have otherwise." As This Week reported last year, Bill C-391, a private member's bill to repeal the registry, passed second reading with a vote of 164 to 137 on Nov. 4 2009. The minority Conservative government got help from 12 New Democrats, eight Liberals and one independent. The bill will next go to a vote in the House of Commons Sept. 21. MP Barry Devolin was not available for comment this week, but in a November 2009 interview with This Week, he said many of his constituents who are farmers and hunters feel like they are being picked on and made into scapegoats by the registry that they found annoying and expensive. Although he did recognize that the registry was put in place as a response to the 1989 shootings at l'ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, he still disagrees with treating all legal gun owners as potential criminals. Chief Hagarty said he has not received much feedback from the public on his position supporting the federal gun registry so far. He added he has spoken many times with MP Barry Devolin on the subject and though the two do not share the same opinion, he said he feels comfortable that Mr. Devolin is well-versed on both sides of the debate, but is open to speaking with him leading up to the September vote. "I understand that it is very efficient and very easy, and if that's the case - what is the problem? I register my car," Chief Hagarty said, adding improvements have been made to the system to help legitimate gun owners. "It's not to criminalize legal gun owners, it is simply a way to track guns in the community," Chief Hagarty maintains. "Police have no interest in criminalizing those who don't register long guns, but the licensing of firearm owners isn't sufficient," said Chief Robert Herman, vice-president of the Ontario Association Chiefs of Police. "A licence tells us a person can have a gun. The registry tells us what guns that person has. There is a huge difference - a difference that could put the lives of citizens and our officers in great danger." Submit a [form] Letter http://www.mykawartha.com/generalform ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:03:55 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Man faces charges after home attacked with Molotov cocktails I reported this several days ago although with fewer details. It seems he cannot defend his home against attackers but the attackers fled scot free ? and he got charged ? he should have said ;"I tripped and fell and the gun went off accidentally."AND STICK TO THAT STORY because nobody could disprove it. ed/on BS go figure - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" To: "Firearms Digest" Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:49 AM Subject: Man faces charges after home attacked with Molotov cocktails > The Canadian Press - ONLINE EDITION > Port Colborne, Ont., man faces charges after home attacked with Molotov > cocktails > By The Canadian Press Posted: 23/08/2010 8:56 PM | Last Modified: > 24/08/2010 > 11:18 AM > http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/port-colborne-ont-man-faces-charges-after-home-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails-101349084.html > > PORT COLBORNE, Ont. - A Port Colborne, Ont., man whose home was attacked > has > ended up facing charges himself. Niagara Regional Police say a man emerged > from his home with a handgun and fired it after several Molotov cocktails > were thrown at the home. Police say three suspects wearing dark clothes > got > away in a car after the cocktails were thrown early Sunday morning. There > is > nothing to suggest any of them were injured when the gun was fired. By the > time police and firefighters arrived, the homeowner had already doused > several small fires and damage to the home was minimal. Ian Thomson, 53, > is > charged with careless use of a firearm. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:07:40 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Former police chief, remains opposed to the long-gun registry - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" To: "Firearms Digest" Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:04 AM Subject: Former police chief, remains opposed to the long-gun registry > SENTINEL-REVIEW - AUGUST 27, 2010 > Local opinions differ on registry > By HUGO RODRIGUES, SENTINEL-REVIEW > http://woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2732391 > > The Canadian Firearms Program is a valuable community safety tool used > hundreds of times a year by officers and should be maintained, Woodstock > Police Service Chief Rod Freeman said Thursday. But Oxford MP Dave > MacKenzie, a former police chief, remains opposed to the long-gun > registry. Where is the law that states the police are NOT allowed to politicise any agenda ? It was posted on here a week or so ago ? Theirs is to "serve and protect " (now theres an oxymoron if I ever heard one ) The only ones they're interested in serving is themselves and protecting their fat a**es in a cushy over paid job. ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:12:49 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: THREE LETTERS ON THE GUN REGISTRY - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" To: "Firearms Digest" Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:14 AM Subject: THREE LETTERS ON THE GUN REGISTRY > TORONTO STAR - AUGUST 27, 2010 > LETTER: NDP takes weak stand on gun registry > http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters/article/853089--ndp-takes-weak-stand-on-gun-registry > If the gun registry IS defeated ? then the next battle will be onerous > licencing.. It puzzles me somewhat that for over 200 years citizens carried long guns without the Nazification paperwork (myself included ) and never once in those 60 odd years that I carried and owned, did I hear the police chiefs complain about the lack of a gun registry. So why cant the police just go back to being regular police( and do what they did in those years ?,) instead of being Nazi standins for the NWO? ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:17:54 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Charter rights Yes I read that too and would like to confirm that if anyone has the stats? ed/on - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trigger Mortis" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 1:23 PM Subject: Charter rights > Sorry, I lost the reference. > > Do you recall that the Association of Chiefs of Police stated that our > Charter rights were not needed nor are they wanted by the Chiefs? > > What publication and what date of publication is that? That is quotable > and I would like to note it. > > Alan Harper > > alan__harper@hotmail.com > > SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 07:59:02 -0700 From: "Barry Snow" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #16 > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:07:19 -0400 > From: Lee Jasper > Subject: Re: SECU C-391 Committee Testimony-May 4th [Coles Notes version] > > Posted to the CFD: > >>> Cheliak testified: >>>> >>>>A "firearms interest to police" report, or FIP, generated anywhere in >>>>Canada regarding a licensed individual will automatically be flagged to >>>>the chief firearms officer of provincial jurisdiction for appropriate >>>>follow-up. In 2009, approximately 7,000 registration certificates were >>>>revoked for public safety concerns. > > 10X commented: > >> So how many firearms licenses were revoked???? > > Should be in the Commish's Report. > >> Was this 100 license holders with 70 guns each or 1000 license holders >> with 7 guns each? >> >> Revoking a registration certificate and not the firearms possession >> license seems somewhat dumb? > > > I think we can presume they would. Don't forget the registrations that have been reported here as being revoked when a license was not renewed on time. >> Is the media that dumb that they do not realize the numbers are being >> spun? Snip Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:02:44 -0600 From: 10x@telus.net Subject: Re: Peer reviewed articles in medical journals At 08:08 AM 8/27/2010 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lee Jasper" >To: "Canadian Firearms Digest" >Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 11:59 PM >Subject: Re: Peer reviewed articles in medical journals > >> Posted to the CFD: >> >>>> The main conclusions of more than 30 articles published in >>>> peer-reviewed journals, including the New England Journal of >>>> Medicine in the U.S. and The Lancet in Britain, were overwhelmingly >>>> positive. For instance, addicts who used Insite were found to be >>>> more likely to go into detox than those who didn't. >> >> Jules sagely counselled: >> >>> The then editor of The New England Jounal of Medicine, Jerome >>> Kassirer, who published the bogus Kellermann study was a rabid >>> anti-firearms proponent. >>> >>> The editor of the Canadian Medical Post who published the study in >>> which the writer, Tom Gabor, fished $6 billion out of thin air as the >>> annual cost of firearms injuries to the Canadian taxpayer, was also a >>> proclaimed anti-gun person. >>> > >IT would be MORE cost effective to give druggies all the illicit drugs they >need/want and then let nature take over. > >This would eliminate the crime problem for one and also eliminate the >druggies. >ed/on This would also eliminate the need for legal empire with a tax dollar budget that was created to fight a war on drugs. They can then turn to a "war on guns".... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:08:41 -0600 From: 10x@telus.net Subject: Re: Vancouver Sun - We need to know if long-gun registry works At 08:23 AM 8/27/2010 -0700, you wrote: > >http://www.vancouversun.com/news/need+know+long+registry+works/3448969/story.html > >We need to know if long-gun registry works >Independent data must be collected to determine its effectiveness > >By Barbara Yaffe, Vancouver Sun August 27, 2010 > > >Debate about the Canadian long-gun registry has been hijacked by >politicians and special interest groups, leaving most Canadians in the >dark about the program's actual value. snip >In this debate, different groups have merely been shouting past each >other, and the Conservative government has made no attempt whatever to >give Canadians the facts they'd need to determine whether the long-gun >registry has been useful. > > >sunletters@png.canwest.com > >byaffe@vancouversun.com Ms Yaffe has made a very good point. There is a great deal of rhetoric and spin but there isn't much truth being presented by any side. All of those "hits" are on the firearms owners license holders database - a part of the firearms law that bill C391 does NOT amend or ever address. The registry and the debate is nothing more than a diversion and busy work for gun owners. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:17:54 -0700 From: birch_as_in_tree@bogend.ca Subject: Will he or won't he ...? Yada-yada-yada ...... All the letters pro and con, all the informed opinions, intellectual tomes, studies, surveys ad nauseum ..... what's the bottom line? Will the registry be abolished (for all the good it will achieve) or continue to be a political football for the foreseeable future? Reason and common sense will not be factors as there were not when it was created. The 'antis' have achieved a great measure of success in the interim by creating a generation of hoplophobics and a generation of police who have bought into the Alan Rock vision of a gun-free dystopia (except for police, soldiers and criminals). As fewer and fewer people take up the shooting sports and hunting becomes less popular, gun owners are a fast disappearing part of the Canadian demographic. Our 'rights' and concerns are becoming increasingly easy to ignore amidst the clamour of politically correct causes and issues. Todd Birch .... <>< .... ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #19 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)