Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, September 13 2010 Volume 14 : Number 056 In this issue: Re: we support the licensing Re: No 'RFC Big Cheese' is going to get us the American's 2nd letter to G&M (just sent) Re: A reckless act of civil obedience ... Some facts on Wendy Cukier Re: A reckless act of civil obedience ... Help! listowel Hill Times - Support the gun registry or you don't know jack "LETTERS: (1) Retired cop dismisses...(2) Police chief has no..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:45:23 -0400 From: ED HUDSON Subject: Re: we support the licensing Re: we support the licensing Is Al Muir the only person who read what Ms. Hoeppner said? Please read Ms. Hoeppner's statement again: "We support licencing." The "We" is the CPC. Sincerely, Eduardo - ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Muir Date: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:41 pm Subject: Re: we support the licensing > > Date: Sun, September 12, 2010 11:08 am > > From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" > > Subject: HOEPPNER: "Our government has always been clear: we > support the > > licensing... > > > > RED RIVER VALLEY ECHO - SEPTEMBER 12, 2010 > > MP reacts to RCMP report on gun registry > > By Greg Vandermeulen > > http://www.altonaecho.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2749772 > > > > ALTONA - MP Candice Hoeppner said "Our government has > always been > > clear: > > we support the licensing of people who own firearms > > > Is it clear to all of us now that the CONS have been > playing us and there > will be nothing later? > > Al ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 18:00:35 -0400 From: ED HUDSON Subject: Re: No 'RFC Big Cheese' is going to get us the American's 2nd Re: No 'RFC Big Cheese' is going to get us the American's 2nd amendment. Please be aware that we are not seeking the American's 2nd Ammendment. Rather than the "Right to Bear Arms" we seek the English Declaration of Right call for the Right to have 'Armes for their Defense." Without that Right we are but slaves to the State. I certainly agree: NO RFC Big Chees is going to get us this Right. It is an indivudual Right and must be foght for & won by individuals. Sincerely, Eduardo - ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Jasper Date: Monday, September 13, 2010 12:05 am Subject: Re: CSSA, OFAH and others > > Subject: Re: CSSA, OFAH and others >>>> > No 'RFC Big Cheese' is going to get us the American's 2nd amendment. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 10:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: letter to G&M (just sent) Matter. Of. Fact. If only government decisions were ... (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, Shari Graydon makes a great point, that legislation should be evidence based. The problem is, there is sufficient evidence to go around, and as Samuel Clemens once opined "There are lies, damned lies and statistics". Rhetoric and hyperbole are the stuff of politics, and this is confirmed when Graydon stumbles onto the loaded topic of the firearms registry. Recently, in a private members bill (C-301) tabled by Yorkton-Melville MP Garry Breitkreuz, a groundbreaking attempt was made to rationalize expensive firearms regulations. The key element was that each regulation be evidence based by way of periodic audits by the Auditor General. This very well written bill simply cut through the partisan rhetoric by asking for a evaluation of value received by the taxpayer for each regulation on a periodic basis. Of course, subjecting our Parliament to such a standard was viewed an affront to Parliamentary authority, and the bill was killed -- ostensibly by partisan rhetoric from both government and opposition. Plus ca change? Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk - -- Letters to the Editor Submit a Letter letters@globeandmail.ca Globe & Mail Article; Matter. Of. Fact. If only government decisions were … - - Shari Graydon http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/matter-of-fact-if-only-government-decisions-were/article1703291/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 18:05:38 -0400 From: ED HUDSON Subject: Re: A reckless act of civil obedience ... Re: A reckless act of civil obedience ... Yes, Please, undertake a reckless and perilous journey! Support Bruce & Donna Montague's Constitutional Challenge to the Licencing mandate of the Firearms Act. Sincerely, Eduardo - ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Sciuk Date: Monday, September 13, 2010 4:23 am Subject: A reckless act of civil obedience ... > It appears that the time has come for all upstanding firearm > owners to > undertake a reckless and perilous journey, ... . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:50:35 -0700 From: "Jim Pook" Subject: Some facts on Wendy Cukier Some facts on Wendy Cukier: *Cukier ILLEGALLY received nearly $400,000 in grants, from then Justice Minister Allan Rock's office, to act as a government lobbyist...lobbying the government. Both Cukier and Kim Doran are currently under investigation for this. *Cukier's firm Telecon Consulting has large contracts with the RCMP, several police departments and provincial governments, on IT services involving the Federal Firearms Centre. *Cukier's recent book, "Global Gun Epidemic," has been panned for fabrications of facts, including referencing models of firearms which don't exist. Some other tidbits of information: *Gun Registry IT contractor CGI funds (that's right--FUNDS) the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, making the CACP a paid corporate lobbyist and putting the organisation into a gross conflict of interest position. *CGI and fellow Registry IT contractor Honeywell donated heavilly to the Chretien Liberal campaign. *The $2B Gun Registry was never about public safety at any cost. During their tenure, the Liberals disbanded the Ports Police, refused to arm border guards and attempted to close two RCMP crime labs, all for 'cost reasons.' *Calgary's Police Chief Rick Hansen, the OPP's Julian Fantino and the majority of rank-and-file police officers have dismissed the Registry as worse than useless. *The RCMP's 'report' which states that the Registry only costs $4M per year to operate is a blatant fiction. Eliminating the long-gun registry portion of the bureaucracy alone (not licensing, or Restricted/Prohibited registrations) would result in the layoff of about 200 people, the annual wage and benefit costs alone reaching into the tens of millions. Add the costs of IT contracts and planed replacements of legacy computer systems, and the long-gun portion of the Canadian Firearms Centre's operating budget runs FAR higher than the quoted figure. Remember that the Canadian Firearms Centre once claimed $13.5M, IN ONE YEAR, on 'travel expenses.' The Auditor General needs to have a look at the RCMP's accounting procedures. *Bell-Globemedia (CTV, The Globe and Mail) own CGI. PSAC (fighting to save those 200-odd Registry jobs) funds Rabble. Draw your own conclusions about media bias. *Like the old (1935 onwards) Handgun Registry, the Long-Gun Registry has the dubious destinction of having never prevented, nor solved a crime. This is why Registry proponents, like Cukier, flog the '11,000 hits per day' statistic, instead. Actually, this is the result of an automated protocol, by which police computers access the Canadian Firearms Centre's computers, on everything from fender-benders, to purse-snatchings. *According to Canada Customs records, about HALF of the legally-acquired firearms in Canada have never been registered, and many of their owners never licensed--a staggering level of non-compliance. *The Firearms Centre's database has been accessed by organised crime, leading to break and enters by criminals who have treated the Registry as a shopping list. *There is a database of the MILLIONS of Canadians legally able to own firearms. These people must also submit to WARRANTLESS 'inspections,' at firearms officers' whims. Yet there is no database of people PROHIBITED from owning firearms, the rights of whom are protected by the Charter against warrantless searches. James Roszko was in the latter category, along with being a repeat violent sexual offender, with a smuggled, UNREGISTERED weapon. *Gamil Gharbi (AKA, 'Marc Lepine') used a firearm bought under Trudeau's old Firearms Acquisition Certificate regime, which he modified (his clumsiness turning a semiauto rifle into a single-shot weapon) to murder young women in a mysogenistic rage inspired by his wife-beating father. Kimveer Gill did much the same thing, only with the aid of Chretien's new and improved Posession and Acquisition Licensing and registration regime. Gill, however, never bothered to get an Authorization To Transport to bring his guns to that school. And the killers of Jane Creba--members of Kingston's criminal diaspora, living in Jane & Finch, some of whom were on Conditional Sentences--never bothered with either licensing, or registration of their smuggled-in weapons. Here, in Calgary, a career criminal who would have been rotting in jail under Canada's old, 'unenlightened' Criminal Code, shot a bystander's eyes out. Yet the Wendy Cukiers don't like to draw a link between post-Trudeaupian immigration and criminal justice policies and gun crime. (Prior to 1976, school shootings and drug-gang shootings of bystanders were unheard of.) *Meanwhile, people with no criminal records, who legally acquired firearms under the old FAC system, inherited them, or let their POLs, or PALs lapse have been subject to warrantless searches by the Toronto Police, under Chief Blair (you know, the nice guy behind all those G20 arrests). 'Unsafe storage' (e.g., only one lock on a 'restricted' firearm), or a lapsed license can land you in jail for five years--this is NOT like auto licensing, where you can simply let your license lapse, if you keep your car in the garage. Some of the people visited by Blair's goons have included war vets. *However, Chief Blair and his boss, David Miller have refused to address the horrendous, and politically-incorrect gang and gun problem, in places like Jane & Finch. While happilly playing the thug with legal firearms owners and peaceful G20 protesters, Blair doffed his uniform and gun to do a kowtowing photo-op with Jane & Finch gangsters. Even though legal gun owners have faced legal harrassment, violent criminals (e.g., the one who shot Jane Creba) are rarely jailed. *Registration IS a prelude to civilian disarmament. The old handgun registry was used to confiscate <105mm barrelled and .32, .25 handguns, under the Campbell regime. Allan Rock, among others, have stated that they would like to see civilian firearms ownership abolished. And the handgun registry, like its British counterpart, was a response to fears of Communist and Anarchist groups threatening the Capitalist system during the first Red Scare. Licensing and registration were also employed by the Nazi regime to disarm Jews and dissidents. *While Cukier speaks darkly of the NRA and shadowy funding, she doesn't like to point out the fact that groups such as her Coalition For Gun Control, Project Ploughshares and other anti-gun groups are funded by donations from billionaires like George Soros and Warren Buffet, who have made fortunes off of less than ethical activities, and fear the idea of armed civilians opposed to their business agendas. Jim Pook Vancouver Island-North ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: A reckless act of civil obedience ... - --- On Mon, 9/13/10, 10x@telus.net <10x@telus.net> wrote: > > The gun need not be taken into possession by any of the buyers. The > registraition could be sold just like carbon credits as there is nothing > in the legislation that says a properly licensed individual can not hold > the gun after the tranfer is complete and subsequent transfers are > complete. There seems to be some confusion regarding this. Here is what the FA says about "authorized lending": 33. Subject to section 34, a person may lend a firearm only if (a) the person (i) has reasonable grounds to believe that the borrower holds a licence authorizing the borrower to possess that kind of firearm, and (ii) lends the borrower the registration certificate for the firearm, except in the case of a borrower who uses the firearm to hunt or trap in order to sustain himself or herself or his or her family; or (b) the borrower uses the firearm under the direct and immediate supervision of the person in the same manner in which the person may lawfully use it. You may only lend a firearm if you also lend the registration certificate for it as well. Unfortunately, once the original owner transfers the gun in to someone else's name, *his* registration certificate for it is revoked, since it is no longer his "property". The buyer would have to mail the original owner his new registration certificate, so it becomes "authorised". The legal limbo that happens between the revoking the original owner's regcert and the receipt of the new owner of their regcert is supposedly covered by the "transaction number" they give you when you call up the CFC. However, this number is not an actual "registration certificate", which must be generated in the "proscribed form". If the cops wanted to ruin your day, they could seize you gun until you produced the actual regcert for it. This is an extremely gray area, which has not been resolved by the Courts. Who knows what they would decide if presented with such a case. Yours in TYRANNY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:49:20 -0700 From: "Todd Birch" Subject: Help! A while back someone posted a good rebuttal to the "Well, we register cars, so why not guns"" argument. I need to quote from it in order to reply to an editorial letter in the Cariboo Observer from a local clinical pyschiatrist who thinks we need to retain the firearms registry. Will the author or someone else please refresh me on the position? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:54:08 -0400 From: "tliner" Subject: listowel possession of a weapon for dangerous purposes and unauthorized possession of a firearm http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/09/13/15336971.html but was the weapon registered? isn't that what the registry is all about? how long have we had the registry? shouldn't this sort of thing have been weeded out by now? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 08:31:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Hill Times - Support the gun registry or you don't know jack Support the gun registry or you don't know jack Even preventing the loss of one or two lives pays for the registry, if you're callous enough to consider only dollars and cents. At $3-million to $4-million a year, the long gun registry is an incredible bargain. By BEVERLY AKERMAN Published September 13, 2010 These are just a few recent stories in the country-soon-to-be-naked-of-the-long-gun-registry: July 2009: Joan Hanson, daughter, and granddaughter shot dead by Ms. Hanson's estranged hunter husband with his legally owned rifle, which he later turns on himself. January 2010: Stephanie Hoddinott shot dead by a former boyfriend, using a legally acquired handgun he then uses to kill himself. March 2010: three women shot near Belleville by a male acquaintance of one of them; two die. Within days, Const. Vu Pham is shot and killed by hunter Fred Preston, apparently despondent about the break up of his marriage. Weeks later, disgruntled Edmonton car dealership employee Dave Burns walks into work firing a sawed-off shotgun. Manager Garth Radons dies and Burns turns the gun on himself; he'd apparently been suspended for uttering racial slurs and posting sexually explicit photos mocking another employee. Radons' wife, a police officer, is among the first on the scene. How does the long-gun registry help prevent this litany of death, including suicide, and crime, including murder? Knowing who has which guns allows police to remove them as a preventative measure, should it become necessary. In the Preston case, if his estranged wife had reported any threats he made to police, they could have removed Mr. Preston's guns. All his guns, which isn't possible if they aren't all listed somewhere handy, like, say, a long gun registry. Since its creation, some 22,000 firearms licences have been denied and more than 8,000 guns surrendered and confiscated because of safety concerns like those posed by Mr. Preston. Of the revoked guns, 74 per cent were non-restricted shotguns and rifles. The boundary between "law-abiding duck hunter" and "criminal" only takes a fraction of a second to breach: how long does it take to pull a trigger? In light of these statistics, how can opponents of the registry continue to deny it saves lives? In fact, many lives have been lost at the hands of "legal" gun owners. Having a gun in the home, rather than making you safer, dramatically increases the chance of death. Those suspicious of statistics and their collection may prefer to believe in unreported crime and "coming soon to a Parliament near you, perhaps" imaginary crime. (With the crime rate plummeting, we'll need to fill all those new penitentiaries somehow.) Dr. Ted Miller's 1995 look at gunshot wounds in Canada, published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, estimated that 1991 gunshot wounds cost Canada $6.6-billion (1993 dollars), representing nearly $9-billion today. About $63-million was associated with medical and mental health and $10-million with public services; productivity losses exceeded $1.5-billion. The remaining dollars were attributed to "pain, suffering and lost quality of life." Miller didn't take into account costs associated with the justice and incarceration systems, but it's clear that the enormous costs of gun violence" including "legal gun" violence" dwarf the cost of the registry. Even preventing the loss of one or two lives" or one or two shootings" pays for the registry, if you're callous enough to consider only dollars and cents. At $3-million to $4-million a year, the long gun registry is an incredible bargain. NDP Leader Jack Layton is supposedly a supporter of women's rights and equality. He is also, supposedly, a supporter of the long gun registry. Well, the gun registry is a women's issue, too: the vast majority of those long gun owning "duck hunters" are men. The vast majority of individuals threatened, shot and killed in domestic disputes are women. The RCMP and the associations of chiefs of police, the women's organizations, suicide prevention, emergency and other medical associations have unequivocally come out in favour of the gun registry, proven a critical tool in the prevention of suicide and domestic violence, especially in rural settings. Gutting the registry when all these groups are in favour of it and the "duck hunters" are against it is really letting the tail wag the dog. If this same "duck hunter" brain trust decided that our murder laws don't prevent murder, would you strike those laws down, too, Mr. Harper? So there you have it, Messrs. Harper and Layton: either you ensure the registry survives, or you betray your sacred responsibility to Canadians, including women and rural people. Either you support the registry or you don't know jack. Beverley Ackerman is a Montreal award-winning scientist and writer engaged in supporting and strengthening Canada's gun laws since her son was at the Sept.13, 2006 Dawson College rampage. Her work has been published by The Hill Times, The National Post, The Toronto Star, The Montreal Gazette, The Chronicle-Herald, The Daily Gleaner, The London Free Press, and The Sherbrooke Record. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, September 13, 2010 4:25 pm From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: "LETTERS: (1) Retired cop dismisses...(2) Police chief has no..." Cc: "OUTDOORS CAUCUS ASSOCIATION" Subject: "LETTERS: (1) Retired cop dismisses long-gun registry (2) Police chief has no business speaking on guy registry" THUNDER BAY CHRONICLE JOURNAL - SPETEMBER 12, 2010 LETTER: Retired cop dismisses long-gun registry Publication Date: Sunday, September 12, 2010 http://www2.chroniclejournal.com/editorial/letters/2010-09-12/retired-cop-dismisses-long-gun-registry I was an officer with the Ontario Provincial Police for over 33 years. I served in Kirkland Lake, Alliston, Red Lake, Dryden, Armstrong, Upsala and Vermilion Bay. I never once used the firearms database to see if any household or any person in the house had a registered long gun. As most police officers in the "North" know, most homeowners have rifles (long guns). They have them for hunting, self and family protection (mostly from roaming bears); farmers have them for varmint problems. When I receive a domestic call of any type, I always use extreme caution. When I approach the call, I always assume the person(s) have guns. The so-called database does not take into account any unregistered long guns. When a call is received, the first question you ask the dispatcher is how many are in the home and if they have any guns handy. Use common sense at all times. Let's face it, if a person is going to commit a crime of any type he or she is not going to worry whether the long gun is registered or not. Even if a crime is committed with a registered long gun, unless it is dropped or the criminal identified, the database in this case is useless. Thursday night on TVO's The Agenda there were four people debating the pros and cons of the long-gun registry. It was enlightening to say the least. Paulette Senior was advocating on behalf of the YWCA to keep the registry, citing use of long guns in domestic disputes. I have investigated countless domestic complaints and I have never found a long gun had ever been used in any of them. Most domestics are from the use of physical force, sex abuse,mental abuse and child abuse. I did assist another officer in one case where the husband shot his wife's lover with a long gun so there is no doubt that long guns have been used in some domestic cases. Chief Bill Blair of the Toronto Police Service was in favour of keeping the registry, saying that his officers use the database all the time for safety reasons on domestic calls. I am sure there a lot of police officers in larger centres who may not agree with what I have written but I have spoken to quite a few who do agree with me. How many criminals walk around with a long gun under their jacket? John Kennedy, Dryden - -------------------------------- THUNDER BAY CHRONICLE JOURNAL - SPETEMBER 11, 2010 LETTER: Police chief has no business speaking on guy registry Publication Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010 http://www2.chroniclejournal.com/editorial/letters/2010-09-11/police-chief-has-no-business-speaking-guy-registry Re MPs Threaten Police, Public Safety With Gun Vote (open letter); Support Grows For Gun Registry (editorial); Sept. 10: My hat is off to NDP leader Jack Layton for allowing his MPs a free vote on the topic of the long-gun registry. This is democracy at work. The way it should be. The same cannot be said for the Liberals who will whip their MPs on the upcoming gun registration vote. One must also ask why public servants such as our police chief think they have the role of shaping public policy. Is it acceptable for a public servant in his position to take a position in any political debate at all? If so, we have entered an era in Canadian history where we are seeing the dawning of a police state mentality and this, quite frankly, is by far more threatening to both our public freedoms and safety. Statistics Canada finds that 93 per cent of firearms-related homicides are committed by non-licensed offenders. The average number of licensed citizens accused of firearms homicide in a given year is 12. That is, for the 1.8 million licensed firearms owners in Canada, on average, 12 of them are accused of firearms-related homicides. In the same report, of 5,194 homicides between 1997 and 2005, 5,076 of them were not related to legally registered firearms. Are Canadians satisfied that 97.7 per cent of the time the costly gun registry system does absolutely nothing to assist police in these criminal investigations? The public is being misled by lobby groups who have wrongly politicized this topic and the media has failed miserably to cover this subject objectively and without bias. The sad result of this is that criminals are sitting back and laughing, knowing full well that in a Liberal-dominated society they will not be subjected to stiffer jail sentences for gun-related crimes, nor will they ever willingly register their weapons - no matter what the result of the upcoming vote. This fact has been entirely lost in the debate and it is shameful that a police chief has spent more time fighting for the registration of farmers' shotguns than fighting for a justice system that protects innocent people. This threatens public safety far more than an MP's free vote to scrap a useless piece of legislation. John Kaplanis Executive director, Northwestern Ontario Sportsmen's Alliance Thunder Bay - -- -- Letters to the Editor On-line Form; http://www2.chroniclejournal.com/contact/editorial/letters ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #56 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)