Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, October 12 2010 Volume 14 : Number 131 In this issue: Re: Chavez approach = an opportunity for RFC? Re: Any studies? Re: Why on Earth is David Chen on trial? *NFR* Re: Timmins Daily Press - Snide's Remarks column: Re: Lawyers amongst us Re: Any studies? SCC case? TorStar - Fantino to announce by-election bid TorStar - Travers: Rifle wrath puts Conservatives at risk Moncton T&T - Canada ponders arming Afghan villages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:28:15 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Chavez approach = an opportunity for RFC? Posited on the CFD: > I've often pondered if the RFC would make any headway if we 'compromised' > and registered through the military under a formalised 'militia.' Most of the anti registration group are too ancient for reserve military service. I'm a young graybeard and am still too old for service in the Coast Guard Rescue Auxiliary and all my similar aged Buds involved with volunteer fire depts are similarly sat down. Any hint of the RFC militarizing might being the very kind of attention and scrutiny we would not wish to experience. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:38:18 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Any studies? Bruce wrote: > Any studies? > > Does anyone know of any (recent) studies on just how many people trust > what politicians have to say? How about how many people rely on what > "experts" have to say? I recall that politicians used to be ranked right up their with used car salespeople. Judges are ranked high as are many professionals. As Steve and Tony discovered, citizens generally placed more trust in StatsCan scientists than in politicians over the Long Census debacle. Citizens don't trust their gov't's., politicians, financial institutions, and often their fellow citizens. The trust in police has dropped as a result of a compilation of issues suggest as Taser usage creep, G-20, Vancouver's Sgt. Pepper, Toronto's Officer Bubbles. But the debate over C-391 suggests that citizens trust the police more than gov't politicians toeing the Party line. How Can We Trust Our Fellow Citizens? > http://www.colbud.hu/honesty-trust/offe/pub01.PDF Many World Citizens Trust Neighbors More Than Police Trust in neighbors and police about equal in 21 countries October 25, 2007 by Magali Rheault > http://www.gallup.com/poll/102346/many-world-citizens-trust-neighbors-more-than-police.aspx#1 Public Trust & Accountability [This was Harper's No. 1 campaign plank]. > http://www.openthegovernment.org/article/articleview/32/1/15 A strong right of access to government information is a key component of an accountable government. In the simplest sense, accountability is being answerable for performance or results. Much of the public's trust rests upon the government being openly accountable for its decisions, actions and mistakes. When the government operates in secret or refuses to disclose information to the public, it is in essence stripping the public of its ability to oversee and hold the government accountable. Often, a loss of public trust in the government results from these situations. However, it is the government that first displays a lack of trust in the public -- a lack of trust to handle and understand the information. Access to information on government decisions, how they were made, and the results of implementing those decisions are vital to enabling the public to hold the government more accountable and assess its performance. Without sufficient information the public cannot fully understand the context in which decisions are made. Programs increase accountability by collecting and disclosing information about performance, curbing abuse, misconduct, waste, inefficiency and many other problems in government agencies, corporations, and even individuals. When such problems do arise, the information allows a fuller understanding and faster response. Strong policies to actively disclose and provide access to information are essential requirements for a truly accountable government. While the right to access government information is not the only method to improve government accountability, it is one of the most fundamental and democratic. Access to information also acts a check and balance on other forms of accountability. Unfortunately, because government accountability often means that responsibility or blame will be assigned to agencies, organizations or individuals, an inherent resistance exists within government. It is this reluctance to risk criticism and reprimand that often gives rise to the deeply entrenched secrecy that exists within government. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:57:48 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Why on Earth is David Chen on trial? *NFR* > Why on Earth is David Chen on trial? *NFR* > > http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/unjust+prosecution/3636302/story.html > > The Montreal Gazette > > October 7, 2010 > > Why on Earth is David Chen on trial? > > The Toronto shopkeeper is charged, with two of his clerks,with assaulting > and forcibly confining Anthony Bennett, a notorious shoplifter with 43 > convictions. One day in May 2009, just an hour after videotape showed > Bennett stealing potted plants from Chen's Lucky Moose market, Bennett > returned for more, only to be grabbed by Chen and clerks, tied up, and > thrown into the back of a van. For once, police came promptly. > > Bennett's sentence for the plant theft was reduced because he agreed to > testify against Chen. Toronto has plenty of small shopkeepers,Chinese and > other, and interest in the case is high. What a sad image of Canadian > justice this case transmits to Chinese-language media around the world, > and to everyone else, as well. > > Giving David Chen anything more than a warning is simply abusive. Can someone explain how it can be possible that only Joe Volpe with his Bill C-547 is attempting to address the Chen issues. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0600 From: 10x@telus.net Subject: Re: Timmins Daily Press - Snide's Remarks column: At 05:43 PM 10/11/2010 -0700, you wrote: > >http://www.timminspress.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3D2794672 > >Snide's Remarks column: Voters won=E2=80=99t forget registry > >Posted 1 hour ago > >The long-gun registry is an example of government legislation with good >intentions, that isn't effective in the real world. > >The creation of Bill C-68 was sparked by one of the most hideous crimes in >Canada's history: The Montreal Massacre. > >On Dec. 6, 1989, Marc Lapine, age 25, shot and killed 28 people at >cole Polytechnique in Montreal. Lapine killed 14 women and four men in >about 20 minutes before turning the gun on himself.He also injured 10 more >women. His attacks were carried out using a legally obtained Mini-14 rifle >and a hunting knife. > >In terms of mass murders in Canada, The Montreal Massacre ranks second in >the number of fatalities. (The worst was the Air India bombing in June >1985, where 329 people 278 Canadians were killed.) What about the Bluebird Night Club arson where 43 people died? That was a mass murder as well. Apparently arsonists deliberately burning folks to death doesn't count? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:39:59 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Lawyers amongst us Posted to the CFD: > Surely there are a few lawyers amongst us that could put what was > suggested into layman's terms so the general idiocy ...I mean public > could understand. If you spent some time reading the 'comments' to articles in the major dailies I think you'd agree that it is not just 'laymen' who need to be educated about firearms legislation, the application of the Act and Regulations, etc. I would submit that after 15 years, citizens who believe the requirements for licencing and registration are neither unreasonable and overly onerous - and are not likely to change their minds. A very sizable number of gun owners are also of the opinion that the requirements are not unreasonable. The argument that we're criminalized gains little sympathy, partly because people don't understand what is meant - again read the comments to articles written about this point. I doubt that many gun owners really understand. I suggest that the only argument we've got are the cost benefits, or lack of, for the current regime - versus whatever alternatives the gov't might offer, and it has not offered any - beyond a rigorous enhanced licensing program paired with continuous screening - that many in the RFC have panned - while others have applauded. And the gov't (and police) hold this out as successful due to the number of licence refusals, revocations and prohibitions. Read the testimony at the SECU Committee to hear what the gov't was told by gun owners. Our gov't has established a very selective channel of communication with the outside world and unless you're-in-the-loop you have no voice. After the NDP/Liberal amendments, I would think that we're too late to have many significant new ideas - on issues open to negotiation. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:39:13 -0700 From: Christopher di Armani Subject: Re: Any studies? On 2010-10-11 8:38 PM, Lee Jasper wrote: > Bruce wrote: > >> Any studies? >> >> Does anyone know of any (recent) studies on just how many people trust >> what politicians have to say? How about how many people rely on what >> "experts" have to say? > I recall that politicians used to be ranked right up their with used car > salespeople. There was a Supreme Court decision a few years ago (I can't seem to find it at the moment) that said politicians are not bound to keep election promises. I think it was in Quebec. Stand up for Canadians? Please... It was a typical SCC decision... covering the asses of the politicians who put them there. - -- Yours in Liberty, Christopher di Armani christopher@diArmani.com http://www.diArmani.com Check out the latest from Katey Montague at http://www.YouTube.com/KateysFirearmsFacts ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 04:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: SCC case? I'm trying to find the SCC case where they decided that a search wasn't unreasonable based only on a cop's "suspicion" that the suspect was acting "nervously", because the search turned up an evil gun. I can't find it on CANLII or on my hard drive. Anyone remember wgich one this was? Yours in TYRANNY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 04:58:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: TorStar - Fantino to announce by-election bid http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/873813--fantino-to-announce-by-election-bid?bn=3D1 Fantino to announce by-election bid Published On Mon Oct 11 2010 Kate Allen Staff Reporter Julian Fantino will announce on Tuesday his intention to run for the Conservatives in an upcoming Vaughan federal by-election, a party source has told the Star. The Star reported last week that, after a lengthy political courtship, federal Conservatives had convinced the former Ontario Provincial Police commissioner to step up as the Tory candidate. Fantino told a senior Ontario government source that “he was really being pressured by Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservatives to join them. The seat was vacated in August by longtime Liberal MP Maurizio Bevilacqua, who quit to run for mayor of Vaughan. Harper, who has yet to set a date for the Vaughan by-election, may wait and bundle it together with other by-elections across the country, the Star was told last week. Two by-elections must be held in Manitoba, and Harper must call one for Winnipeg North by Oct. 27. Bevilacqua served the riding for 22 years and won several elections by wide margins, though that lead tapered off in the 2008 federal race. The Liberals haven't yet announced a candidate to replace him. Fantino, 67, is a high-profile candidate for the Conservatives. He was OPP commissioner from 2006 until retiring this summer. He served as York Region's chief for two years before becoming Toronto's top cop from 2000 to 2005. Fantino's long record with law enforcement has sometimes been pocked with controversy. In 1994, he was accused of homophobia for his handling of a child pornography investigation in London, Ont., when he was police chief there. In 2002, the police union launched a $2.7 billion class-action lawsuit against the Star for a series of articles exposing racial bias, which Fantino denied existed, inside Toronto's police force; the Supreme Court of Canada dismissed that case. His handling of the Caledonia native standoff was also controversial. After retiring as OPP chief in September, Fantino denied rumours he would end up running for office. At this point, I am more interested in decompressing from 42 years of very busy public service, and that's where it's at, he said. He lives in Woodbridge, which falls inside the Vaughan riding. The Ontario Progressive Conservatives also reportedly pursued Fantino to run provincially. The Prime Minister has not yet set a date for the by-election. If Fantino wins, however, sources say he's a shoo-in for a cabinet post. It has been suggested that Fantino would have to change his position on the long-gun registry in order to fit in with the Conservative caucus but, in fact, he spoke out against the registry in 2003 when he was Toronto police chief. A spokesperson for Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair pointed out the registry back then, before the RCMP assumed responsibility for it in 2006, was not the system it is today. With files from Richard Brennan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:20:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: TorStar - Travers: Rifle wrath puts Conservatives at risk [The scum-sucking liberal toadies will grasp at any straw, won't they? BNM] http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/873713--travers-rifle-wrath-puts-conservatives-at-risk Travers: Rifle wrath puts Conservatives at risk Published On Tue Oct 12 2010 OTTAWA”It's hunting season in the bucolic Ottawa Valley and the sound of gunfire echoes around bush lots. So, too, does the raucous sounds of an old dispute with a weird new twist. Hec Clouthier, the flamboyant former MP Liberals blame for inflaming the Valley over the long-gun registry, is just home from shooting partridge. He's also back in politics and turning roiling rifle owner anger against Conservatives. Clouthier is a character; he's no fool. After being beaten as a Liberal in 2000, the man best known here for his swoopy fedora and in Pembroke for losing his temper defending Jean Chretien's registry is running as an independent. This is not the first time Clouthier has broken Liberal ranks. Back in the 1990s he campaigned and lost as an independent after local Liberals blocked his bid to replace Len Hopkins in a riding the party won back in the Dirty 30s. Clouthier finished a distant second but bounced back, winning for the Liberals in 1997, only to lose to neophyte Cheryl Gallant. Since then Gallant has rolled up victory after victory, all but one larger than the last, mostly by promising to junk the registry. Her repeated promises resonate in a riding with priorities a Conservative organizer once described as God, guns and family, in that order. But ten years have rolled past and the registry still haunts a riding where farm rifles are handed down through generations and filling the game freezer is a cherished way of life. Carole Devine worked hard to exploit the broken promise in the 2008 election campaign and still lost by a three-to-one margin. Gallant, silenced by party headquarters after one too many homophobic rants, kept a low profile letting residual Liberal animosity do its work, securing her one of the largest Conservative victories. Clouthier is determined not to let her win that way again. He's going door-to-door apologizing for towing the Liberal gun registry line, pointing out that Conservatives have yet to risk power to keeping their registry promise and arguing that minority Parliaments give independents disproportionate influence. Odds are usually loaded against candidates flying their own colours. But these are anything but normal times. People are fed up with the whole political system, Clouthier says, making the same point Rob Ford is driving home in the current Toronto mayoralty race. Officially, Valley Liberals aren't happy with Clouthier. They say he's biting the party hand that fed him by splitting the anti-Gallant vote. Clouthier scoffs at criticism. Taking a mischievous poke at the less than 10,000 votes Liberals won in the last election, he quite reasonably argues that Conservative votes are the key to victory. Unofficially, some Liberals not only accept his point, they give Clouthier a surprisingly good chance of returning to the capital. If they are right in Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke, Harper and Conservatives may have a problem in other ridings where the gun registry is a ballot question. Instead of riding a wave of resentment against the registry, the ruling party could find itself facing the double whammy of voters who blame it for failing to scrap the registry as well as those who believe Conservatives are risking public safety for political advantage. It's far too early to know if that's a real or pressing danger. But it's too late for the ruling party to roll back its bold predictions of gains of up to 20 seats by targeting MPs who flip-flopped to save the registry. If Clouthier return to politics signals anything it's that even Conservatives aren't safe from gun registry wrath. James Travers column appears Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:33:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Moncton T&T - Canada ponders arming Afghan villages http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/search/article/1255514 Canada ponders arming Afghan villages Published Saturday October 9th, 2010 Amid growing grassroots resistance to Taliban, Canada mulls training locals THE CANADIAN PRESS KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - The Canadian military is considering taking part in a controversial program to help Afghan villagers defend themselves against the Taliban amid reports that a growing number of locals are standing up to insurgents in the incendiary Panjwaii district - often with violent results. In recent weeks, Canadian soldiers operating in Panjwaii, the district southwest of Kandahar city where the bulk of Canada's fighting force is based, have recorded several incidents where locals have independently confronted members of the Taliban. It is viewed as a positive sign - not just for Canadian troops, but for NATO as a whole, which has been seeking to organize grassroots resistance to the Taliban in the more remote regions of the country. Earlier this year, NATO officials secured a deal with the Afghan government to establish a program to train local defence forces. The program is already underway in parts of northern Kandahar, helping to stabilize areas where the coalition has deployed fewer troops. Until recently, the Canadian contingent has been leery about getting involved in such programs, which have been criticized by some as little more than fostering the growth of organized militias. But with troops scheduled to begin leaving Afghanistan next year, that reluctance appears to be easing. "This is something that's been discussed, this is something that they're looking at in (Panjwaii)," Brig. Gen. Dean Milner, the commander of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, said during a recent tour of the district. "If that's something that works for the country, Canada will get alongside." Under the program, U.S. Special Forces provide training, equipment, and in some cases, arms to villagers. The goal is to eventually incorporate these villagers into local police forces. "It's what we in the military refers to as an economy-of-force mission," said U.S. Col. Dave Bellon, NATO's chief of operations for southern Afghanistan. "You can get great benefits with a relatively minor investment of forces." For the program to be successful, however, certain population dynamics have to be in place, Bellon cautioned. Villagers would first have to reach a level of exasperation with the Taliban before they could be expected to gravitate to the community defence initiative. In Panjwaii, long considered the cradle of the Taliban, those conditions may be emerging. "We'll receive reports that people are using their own household weapons to run off the Taliban," said Maj. Mike Blanchette, who oversees Canadian operations in Panjwaii. "But they're not a formed local militia." Blanchette said there have been small confrontations between locals and insurgents in at least three villages in the district: Chalghowr, Sperwan Ghar and Fathollah. The confrontation last month in Fathollah, a tiny village in eastern Panjwaii, illustrates nicely why such incidents have been both a cause for optimism among Canadian troops, as well as a cautionary tale. According to the military's version of events, the explosion of an improvised explosive device in early September resulted in two unconfirmed child casualties. Locals then assaulted someone they believed was a Taliban member, and asked the insurgents to leave the village. "That's a small sign of progress in terms of areas where people appreciate what the local police are doing for them and don't want those police run out of town by the insurgents," Blanchette said. What happened next takes the sheen off the military's positive spin. Haji Aminullah, one of Fathollah's elders, said the IED was planted after Canadian Forces had spent a night in the village. He told The Canadian Press that following the explosion, which killed one child and injured another, one local villager did indeed beat up a suspected Talib. But not long after, the villager was kidnapped by several members of the Taliban, roughed up badly, then dumped back in Fathollah as a warning to others. "Before this, we didn't have a fight with the Taliban," Aminullah said. "We are not against the Taliban; we are against their activities, like planting IEDs in the area." Military officials acknowledged that any effort to encourage local resistance to the insurgents is fraught with risks. The Taliban has a carefully cultivated reputation for savagery when it comes to retribution. "We understand that it's a very precarious position to put the locals in," said Bellon. "So when they invest in this, you have got to be there for them." As if to prove the point, villagers in eastern Khost province staged angry protests Friday after NATO helicopters opened fire on six Afghan militiamen who were part of a community security force that worked for local tribal leaders, and were not affiliated with the Afghan government. Hundreds of villagers shouting "Death to America" and "Long live the Taliban" carried the bodies to the provincial governor's home to protest, said deputy provincial police chief Youqib Khan. NATO claimed the helicopters opened fire after they were fired upon themselves, Khan said. Despite the obvious risks, there seems to a genuine demand for community defence initiatives in Panjwaii. The district governor, Haji Baran, has said it would help stabilize one of Afghanistan's most restive areas. Village elders of Chalghowr went so far as to say they needed more weapons to help keep the Taliban at bay. For the moment, the Canadians are proceeding cautiously, and remain uncomfortable with the prospect of arming locals. "We always encourage opposition to the insurgency, but we don't encourage armed opposition," Blanchette said. "The people and the instruments that should be doing that are the legitimate arms of government." The Afghan government, which struggles to assert its authority in a country with a deep history of civil conflict, is also said to be uneasy with the idea of providing weapons to local groups, fearing they will devolve into militias and undermine the Afghan National Police and army. From the American perspective, raising a militia force played an integral role in diminishing the intensity of the civil war in Iraq in 2007; the hope is a similar strategy could work in Afghanistan. Gen. David Petraeus, who is now in charge of the NATO mission in Afghanistan, engineered the so-called "Sons of Iraq" program, in which U.S. soldiers armed Iraqi Sunnis who had either grown disenchanted with the insurgency or were paid to defect. From the Afghan perspective, however, arming local groups is akin to playing with fire. The late Afghan president Mohammad Najibullah used militias against the mujahedeen during the Soviet occupation of the 1980s. Warlordism and banditry then hobbled attempts to unite the country following the Soviet withdrawal in 1989. It was ultimately that state of lawlessness that gave rise to the Taliban in the first place. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #131 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)