Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, November 17 2011 Volume 14 : Number 785 In this issue: The sky is falling, the sky is falling!! Re: Todd on muzzle loaders- Digest V14 #783 Scrapping gun registry won't harm criminal investigations History of tragic shootings drives Quebec's gun-registry battle Welcome to Wild Quinte West where guns are a blast Fire away common sense letter to Globe and Mail (just sent) ... Shooters Heard: Interior Will Not Ban Target Practice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:47:57 -0800 From: jim davies Subject: The sky is falling, the sky is falling!! > OTTAWA - Scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns > could fuel illegal firearms trafficking across the Canadian border, > warns an internal federal memo.. Why stop there? Other dire things that "could" happen when the Useless Gun Registry [UGR] is scrapped: Scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns could fuel an obesity epidemic. Scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns could fuel an outbreak of Rhino Acne. Scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns could fuel an increase in flatulism [aka a Bob Rae speech.] Scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns could fuel an increase in divorce. Scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns could fuel an outbreak of the sky falling. etc. But, scrapping the requirement to register rifles and shotguns WILL fuel a gross output of Leftard Bloviation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:54:49 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: Re: Todd on muzzle loaders- Digest V14 #783 Todd, you are right. We do look ridiculous. Somehow the federal government must be afraid of a repeat of the 1869/1885 Riel Rebellion? The over regulation of caplock muzzleloaders is a clear attack on hunters and target shooters. That it continues, without even being challenged, is evidence of a newly adopted "serf" mentality. I'd wager that if Afghan media informed it's population about how tightly regulated muzzleloaders are in Canada, they'd fall down laughing at us. It's only a matter of time before U.S. standup comedians pick up on this. On 16-Nov-11, at 10:06 PM, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:51:10 -0800 > From: Todd Birch > Subject: Gun Laws > > I was just bragging to a US friend about the acquisition of a nice > Browning ML 'Mountain Rifle' and having it transferred to my name. I > mentioned the fact that if it was a flinter, it would be exempt > registration. > > Response: " Do any of your $#@&*! gun laws make any sense at all? When > was the last time a crime was committed in your country with a ML cap > lock rifle? I guess it isn't possible for a flinter to actually to be > used in the commission of a crime ....." > > He's right! Like good law abiding Canucks, we've just become used to > this nonsense. From the perspective of others, we look ridiculous. > > Hasten the day for the scrapping of the long gun registry! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, November 17, 2011 9:29 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Scrapping gun registry won't harm criminal investigations by Gary Mauser THE VANCOUVER PROVINCE - NOVEMBER 17, 2011 Scrapping gun registry won't harm criminal investigations by Gary Mauser http://www.theprovince.com/news/Scrapping+registry+harm+criminal+investigations/5724414/story.html Reports that scrapping the long-gun registry would "significantly compromise" law enforcement's ability to trace firearms in Canada are without factual basis Murderers rarely leave firearms at the scene of a crime. Statistics Canada data shows that about five per cent of firearm homicides involve a gun registered to the murderer. This is less than one per cent of all homicides. During the seven years from 2003 to 2009, there were 4,257 homicides, 1,314 of those were com-mitted with firearms. Recent special requests that I made to Statistics Canada reveal that in less than a third of the homicides with firearms the weapon was identified (422), and most of those (308) were not registered. Of the 114 that were, 52 were registered to some-one other than the person accused of the homicide. In just 62 cases -that is only 4.7 per cent of all firearm homicides - was the gun registered to the accused, and some of those may be innocent. As most homicides are not committed with a gun in Canada, the 62 cases correspond to only about one per cent of all homicides. Even if all of these 62 cases involved long guns, and they do not, eliminating the long-gun registry could not "significantly compromise" law enforcement's ability to trace firearms in Canada. Predictably, the police have not been able to say that the long-gun registry identified any murderer from tracing a firearm in these few cases. Claims that the police use the long-gun registry 17,000 times daily are disingenuous. The RCMP website states that 98 per cent of the queries concerning firearms are about licensing, not the long-gun registry. Gary Mauser, professor emeritus, Simon Fraser University - ------------------------------- VICTORIA TIMES-COLONIST - NOVEMBER 17, 2011 An utterly pointless debate over the gun registry by Les Leyne http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Leyne+column+utterly+pointless+debate+over+registry/5724554/story.html As if the long list of disagreements in the provincial realm wasn't enough to keep them occupied, Liberals and New Democrats found another argument this week completely outside their jurisdiction. "Resolved: That this house support law-abiding gun owners and support the federal government's decision to repeal the federal long-gun registry." It was moved by Liberal MLA Eric Foster (Vernon-Monashee). He's a relatively quiet backbencher, a former mayor of Lumby, and the last person you'd expect to pick a fight. Unless he just got ornery out of the blue, it's more likely the Liberals are trolling for a wedge issue. He opened his remarks with the observation - surely tongue in cheek - that it was "unfortunate" the issue has become "politicized." Foster's case was against the 17-year-old registry, but also strongly in favour of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's decision to dismantle the operation. Opposition New Democrats, of course, get very emotionally fragile when it comes to supporting anything Harper does. And most of them have spent years defending the registry on its own merits. So the battle lines were obvious even before the argument started. Foster said it was a $2 billion mistake that accomplished next to nothing. There will still be background checks, safety courses and licence requirements, even without the registry. What there won't be is the harassment of sport shooters, gun clubs and hunters. The upcoming abolition will make life easier for guide-outfitters in B.C., along with outfitters, farmers and sports shooters. "These people are not criminals and it was wrong to treat them like they had done anything wrong," he said. "Forcing farmers to register common tools wasn't just wasteful but insulting," he said. Getting closer to the actual point of the motion, he pointed out that most MLAs have fish and game clubs in their ridings. "These are not filled with dangerous people." What they are filled with, he was implying, is voters, who may or may not have been watching the debate for signs that their MLAs support them. Whatever Opposition members think of the fish and game vote, the thought of endorsing a Harper move was too much for them. Foster's motion brought NDP MLA Maurine Karagianis (Esquimalt-Royal Roads) up to stress the horrific origins of the registry - the 1989 massacre of 14 women in Montreal. That event and the gun registry are inextricably linked to the issue of violence against women, she said. The registry allows police to seize firearms in cases of reported domestic violence and contributed very significantly to the reduction of violence. NDP MLA Nick Simons (Powell River-Sunshine Coast) objected from a different position. He said he was troubled about the government choosing the most divisive issue of the past 20 years for something to talk about in the legislature. He pointed out it's a federal issue that has nothing to do with the legislature. But that didn't stop him from going on about it, to the point of dragging the Occupy movement in to the picture. "I don't blame the people sitting outside the Vancouver Art Gallery... because they see this is the kind of politics that that kind of government likes to bring up." That's a bit of a stretch. The level of gamesmanship involved in this exercise has probably escaped the notice of the occupiers. Liberal MLA Bill Bennett (Kootenay East) also made a bit of a reach. Recalling how the previous provincial NDP government cracked down on gun clubs, he said: "The NDP is ideologically opposed to individuals having the capacity to defend themselves against the state." He also brought in a big celebrity to bolster his case: Madonna. She made headlines a few years ago saying she felt safer in the U.K. than in the U.S. because there were no guns. Then there was a home invasion and, according to Bennett, "she started to reassess the importance of firearms." NDP MLA Jenny Kwan (Vancouver-Mount Pleasant) ranged similarly far afield, saying Liberals should look in the mirror and practice what they preach on the law and order front. She cited the closure of victim services, the Basi-Virk legal bills and the courthouse staff shortages as better topics. But Liberals stuck to their guns, as it were. After an hour of entertaining but utterly pointless debate, the motion passed. lleyne@timescolonist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, November 17, 2011 9:38 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: History of tragic shootings drives Quebec's gun-registry battle GLOBE AND MAIL - NOVEMBER 17, 2011 History of tragic shootings drives Quebec’s gun-registry battle BY RHÉAL SÉGUIN, Quebec City— Globe and Mail Update http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/history-of-tragic-shootings-drives-quebecs-gun-registry-battle/article2239063/ Next month will mark the twenty-second anniversary of the École polytechnique massacre. It will also mark an important setback for gun control in Canada. On December 6, 1989 Marc Lépine entered the University of Montreal’s engineering school armed with a semi-automatic rifle and shot 28 people. He targeted female students and killed 14 women before taking his own life. The horrific shooting mobilized public opinion towards violence against women. But it also set in motion a nation-wide campaign for tougher gun control measures which lead to the adoption in 1995 of the Firearms Act under which the controversial gun registry was later created. So it comes as no surprise that in the wake of the Montreal massacre followed by the shootings at Concordia University in 1992 and Dawson College in 2006 that support for the gun registry remained highest in Quebec. And it is with the backing of a majority of Quebeckers as well as unanimous support of the Quebec National Assembly, that the province’s Public Security Minister Robert Dutil will appear Thursday before the Commons public safety committee to plead with the Conservative government to hand over all the data held on long guns in the registry. The painful images of the shootings in Quebec and the distraught caused to the victims’ families still carry a powerful message that Mr. Dutil will attempt to deliver to committee members. Premier Jean Charest argued recently in the National Assembly that his government owed it to the families of the victims of the Montreal massacre to lead the fight to maintain the gun registry. And while Mr. Dutil reiterated on Wednesday that he will pursue the battle, Quebec understands all too well that the national gun registry was on the way out. The only issue that mattered now was to protect the data on Quebec gun owners so that the province could use it to set-up its own registry. “We know they (the Conservative government) want to get rid of the registry. It was part of their election platform. But now they want to destroy the data and refuse to hand it over to the provinces who want it. That’s the main battle we have to fight right now,” Mr. Dutil said on Wednesday after the weekly cabinet meeting. “If they adopt the Bill, I will tell them we helped pay for the data and that we want it.” However his federal counterpart Vic Toews has turned a deaf ear to Quebec’s plea to safeguard the data. During the Commons committee hearings this week Mr. Toews reiterated his government’s decision to destroy all records on long guns in the registry. “The data is the registry,” Mr. Toews said in defending his government’s commitment to scrap the records. On issues relating to crime and justice, Quebec has locked horns with the right-wing conservative ideology adopted by the Harper government. In fact it will be the second time this month that a Quebec minister was taking the unusual step of appearing before a Commons committee in Ottawa to convince the Conservative government to amend a bill. Justice Minister Jean-Marc Fournier appeared before a Commons committee two weeks ago in a bid to convince the Harper government to amend provisions of the omnibus crime bill that included tougher treatment of young offenders. Armed with studies and recent statistics, Mr. Fournier made a strong case in support of maintaining rehabilitation programs for young criminals. He argued that measured adopted by Quebec helped reduce youth crimes and repeat offenders and was at the heart of the province’s successful efforts at reintegrating young offenders back into society. But unlike Mr. Fournier, Mr. Dutil will have no studies or statistics to prove his case. There can be no way of measuring whether the gun registry helped prevent shootings similar to the ones witnessed in Quebec in the past. As there can be no scientific way of measuring how many lives were saved. What Mr. Dutil has however are the comments made by the province’s police forces who argued that preventive measures such as the gun registry are useful and that it can continue to be an effective tool in the fight against crime. The police’s comments have been backed by numerous public officials and several groups in Quebec who oppose the federal government’s Bill. More recently the National Firearms Association stated in a memo that scrapping the registry would weaken efforts at controlling the import of weapons since border officials would no longer be required to verify firearms entering the country. “Such a loophole could facilitate unregistered prohibited and restricted firearm trafficking into and through Canada,” said a declassified memo published by the Canadian Press news agency this week. Mr. Toews denied that the Bill will pave the way for the trafficking of guns across the border. If the federal government refuses to back down on its plan to destroy the records, Mr. Dutil said Quebec may have no choice but to seek a court injunction to protect the data for as long as it takes to fight a legal battle in hope of forcing Ottawa to hand over the records to the province. “We may succeed in convincing them. We don’t exclude that...You know my father was a Conservative,” Mr. Dutil said jokingly uncertain whether his appearance before the Commons committee will help tip the balance in Quebec’s favour. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, November 17, 2011 9:43 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Welcome to Wild Quinte West where guns are a blast by Barry Ellsworth TRENTONIAN - NOVEMBER 17, 2011 Welcome to Wild Quinte West where guns are a blast By Barry Ellsworth, 'Off The Cuff' http://www.trentonian.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3373715 Picture this, if you will. A family is walking along the old CNR Tracks, now a trail that wanders along the Bay of Quinte from Creswell Drive, near City Hall, southeast towards Carrying Place. Just past the end of Dufferin Street, the family - mom, dad, and their young daughter and son and the Labrador retriever, Goldie, stroll behind the All-Can warehouse, enjoying the colours of fall and the peace and quiet. Dad is holding the little girl's hand when the silence is broken with a large bang. The little girl jumps and starts to cry, startled by the eruption of a 12-guage shotgun, discharged about 30 feet from her. Dad picks up the frightened little girl, hugs her and says, "It's OK, Emma. It is just some duck hunters but they are not pointing at you, they are shooting ducks. But maybe we should get out of here in case a gun accidentally fires off this way." Welcome to Wild Quinte West. There is no bylaw to prevent hunting and none to stop the discharge of a gun within city limits, even in the most populated area of Trenton. The family is fictional; rather, it was Mary Lou and Quinte who happened to be walking along the trail when the shotgun blast occurred. When she returned home, I can't remember the entire salvo of verbal bullets that flew, but the gist of it was: "What are they doing hunting ducks in Trenton?" "People with deadly weapons." "They are trying to bring the arts here, fix up the downtown.." The hunters are about 30 feet from the trail, where parents and kids stroll, people jog, ride bikes and walk dogs, and the odd idiot takes a motorized vehicle or dumps garbage. There's bylaws against those last two actions, but, as I found out, nothing against hunting or discharging a firearm in Trenton. Bang away, boys. Oh, you can't hunt on city property and you are expected to follow Ministry of Natural Resources hunting regulations such as no shooting within eight metres of a public trail, in this case the old CNR tracks. I guess this means you can set up a duck blind behind city hall in the park along the water and shoot, shoot, shoot. To put this in perspective, let's look at cats. Under Bylaw 08-50, "Every owner of a cat or any other animal shall prevent such cat or animal from running at large within the boundaries of the City." Cats can't run loose, but hunters can. Further, "Any cat or other animal . shall be leashed or otherwise physically restrained and under the control of a person." Cats leashed, hunters no. That triggered another diatribe from M.L. "Oh, yeah, cats are much more dangerous." she said, unleashing her sarcasm. "People with deadly weapons, fine." She called police, but if the hunters are properly licensed and following the rules of good hunting, there really is nothing the cops can do. Ditto for the Ministry of Natural Resources and the City of Quinte West - unless it becomes a safety issue. In my books, hunting that close to a walking/biking trail is definitely a safety issue. Back in the 1950s, we had a neighbor over on Campbell Street - Hap Carswell - - who used to go out in the front yard on New Year's Eve and fire off his shotgun into the air. Apparently, that was legal, still is legal. No bylaw. I used to hunt ducks near Pleasant Bay in Prince Edward County, near Consecon, And, I have friends who hunt, so I am not as vociferous as M.L. against fowl play. But there is no reason for hunting in Trenton. None. The city needs a bylaw against this kind of thing, as well as discharging guns. God save the duck - and any person who happens to be walking nearby. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, November 17, 2011 9:48 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Fire away common sense THE BEACON - NOVEMBER 17, 2011 Fire away common sense http://www.ganderbeacon.ca/Opinion/Editorial-comment/2011-11-17/article-2807834/Fire-away-common-sense/1 Bang, bang, bang. It can be heard coming from behind just about every tree in the province this time of year. Not surprising, since Newfoundlanders and Labradorians love their big- and small-game hunting, and 'tis the season. However, here in central Newfoundland, a number of recent incidents, including a 68-year-old woman being shot in the shoulder by a moose hunter while spending the day in the woods with her family, certainly have a lot of people thinking not only about guns, but also of what their users actually have going through their minds. In the other two incidents, there have been reports of hunters shooting ducks in a pond within the town limits of Grand Falls-Windsor, while in Fogo a rifle was discharged outside a bar. Makes one wonder just how some people are able to own a gun - accident or no accident. Just last month, the federal Conservative government decided to make a move to eliminate the long-gun registry, and while there have been many discussions across the nation weighing the pros and cons of such a decision, having registry or not having one would not make a difference in these three incidents. Here in the province, gun owners are required to do one of three one-time safety courses in order to get a permit (licence) to either purchase, carry and/or use a gun, depending on their requirement. This one-time course is supposed to properly prepare the gun owner to have the knowledge, understanding and ability to use their firearm in a safe and responsible manner. However, these three latest incidents might be more of a message that such a system is failing, and money might be better spent on other avenues of responsible gun control and ownership than a name, address, phone number and how many guns a person owns written on a piece of paper and hidden in a file box on a shelf in an office in Ottawa - okay, a little old school thought but the computer file would be well tucked away on some server. The point is, it's not worth knowing who owns guns after they own them, but knowing if the gun owners understands and takes responsibility for its use. In most cases involving firearms, as it is with two of these three incidents, just plain common sense would be a safe enough decision. When hunting, it's common sense that you don't shoot if you're not sure what you're shooting - remember ignorance isn't, and shouldn't be, a defence. Also, if one is within a town's limits, the chances of other people, especially children, being around increases, and one would hope common sense would lead one to not shoot into a crowd. Register your gun or don't, it doesn't really matter. Common sense from the gun owners, as well as more educational efforts and stricter penalties from the policy-makers is the way to go to help ensure the safety of all people. khiggins@ganderbeacon.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:47:05 -0500 (EST) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: letter to Globe and Mail (just sent) ... History of tragic shootings drives Quebec's gun-registry battle (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, Quebec has suffered a disproportionate share of public attacks by deranged individuals, but to characterize any of them as anything but a mental health issue is to miss the point. Alas, we truly did miss the point when Canada's already effective gun laws were "rationalized" after the Ecole Politechnique. Had the outreach programs for depressed and alienated individuals instead been identified as the problem, then we might have avoided the Dawson College tragedy. Perhaps we should look at Quebec's official policies towards assimilating new immigrants, as there also seems to be a link to problems amoung first generation immigrants (Ghamil Gharbi, Kimveer Ghill). The point is, we have been blindly putting our faith in the wrong public policies all along, and the end result is no net improvement to public safety in spite of a tremendous waste of resources. As with good science, good public policy should be based upon evidence rather than driven by emotion or hysteria. Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:48:48 -0600 From: "Joe Gingrich" Subject: Shooters Heard: Interior Will Not Ban Target Practice http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2011/11/17/shooters-heard-interior-will-not-ban-target-practice Washington Whispers Shooters Heard: Interior Will Not Ban Target Practice By Paul Bedard November 17, 2011 Under fire from gun owners concerned about draft guidelines that could limit areas for target practice on western public lands, the Interior Department today said it would make sure shooters still have access to lands long available for firearms recreation. "Our goal is to leave lands open to shooting," said an Interior official for the Bureau of Land Management, which is drafting guidelines to deal with the growing clash between skittish urbanites moving to western wilderness areas and America's tradition of letting gun owners shoot targets on public lands. [Read: Obama Pushing Shooters Off Public Lands.] "We don't want to have to close any areas," said an official as BLM provided Washington Whispers with a statement clarifying the developing guidelines. "We are in no way interested in banning recreational target shooting, hunting, or fishing-on the contrary, our goal is to develop guidance that will help land managers maximize and preserve opportunities for recreational shooting," said the BLM statement.[Read about the subpoena issued as a result of Operation Fast and Furious.] However, the official said it is possible that areas previously used for target practice that are too close to houses or areas of urban growth could be put off limits. The new plan would be to provide shooters with a map or guide on where they can go for target practice nearby, said the official. "It's the difference of driving two minutes [to shoot] or 15 minutes," said the official. Whispers reported on the controversy yesterday. A committee of conservationists and outdoors groups advising BLM has expressed outrage over the developing guidelines, charging that BLM is making it hard for shooters to practice on public lands, which has a long tradition in the West. The Interior official said that the committee's concerns will be addressed in a "redraft" of the guidelines. [Check out new Debate Club about whether Congress needs to overhaul gun trafficking laws.] The story, promoted on the Drudge Report and Fox Nation, had gun owners up in arms. Below is the full BLM statement to Whispers: The Department of the Interior fully supports and encourages hunting, fishing, and recreational shooting on America's public lands. Nearly 400,000 hunters visit Bureau of Land Management lands every year, generating an estimated $785 million in economic output. The vast majority of BLM's 245 million acres is open to recreational shooting, and we want to keep it that way. The BLM wants to protect opportunities for recreational shooting on public lands and reduce the possibility for conflicts that in the past have resulted in some recreational shooting closures. That is why we are currently working with the Wildlife and Hunting Heritage Conservation Council (WHHCC)-which includes representatives from sportsmen's organizations, the outdoor recreation industry, state resource agencies and others-to develop guidance to protect long-term access to recreational target shooting. We are at the early stages of our work with the WHHCC and will be guided by their input and recommendations. We are in no way interested in banning recreational target shooting, hunting, or fishing-on the contrary, our goal is to develop guidance that will help land managers maximize and preserve opportunities for recreational shooting. It is important to note that hunting and fishing on public lands is managed by state fish and game agencies-and is not the subject of these discussions. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #785 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)