Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, January 15 2012 Volume 14 : Number 884 In this issue: Chairborne Commandos Fwd: The Best Worded Pro-Gun Argument That I Have Ever Read 12,16 and 20 Debate between competing opinions Re: LETTER: Gun licence provides necessary detail Re: Russian finds stockpile of Kalashnikov assault rifles in Re: NFA MEDIA RELEASE: CONSERVATIVE PARTY GUN REGISTRY AD MISLEADING Fw: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre SUN NEWS: BUMBLING BUREAUCRATS BY BRIAN LILLEY RE: Debate between competing opinions RE: 12,16 and 20 RE: The Best Worded Pro-Gun Argument That I Have Ever Read RE: LETTER: Gun license provides necessary detail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:14:30 -0800 From: Todd Birch Subject: Chairborne Commandos Peter Another 'chairborne commando' heard from ..... hiding behind his keyboard, beaking off, safely saying things he wouldn't dare say face to face for fear that he might get a well deserved punch in the mouth; resorting to the default position of personal insult rather than intelligent dialogue. Such is the down side of computer interaction. Thank you for delineating my 'rights' as a gun owner and my apologies for causing you to feel alone in the fight. I'll try to do better. "Grow a pair" you say ..... it is to laugh. A cancer survivor at 69, I do a daily exercise routine that would hospitalize you, including hand stand push ups and a weight training session. I take my "quality time" daily, x-country skiing a distance you couldn't do on your best day at any time in your pathetic urban life. I LIVE the adventure of my life on a daily, personal basis, standing in no one's shadow. My WIFE is a better than man than you, often accompanying me on my jaunts in our wonderful wilderness environment without complaint. You are only one of several 'Walter Mitty' types I've heard from, people who live vicariously through the real life adventures of others, advocating and fomenting actions for personal self-gratification and amusement. Do you actually have a life beyond your computer screen? I invite any and all of your ilk to put it on the line, live up to and do the things you counsel others to do - like shooting people's pets out of hand. Anyone who would consider gun play as a FIRST resort in resolving such an issue is just a short step away from using a gun on a fellow human being - in my humble opinion. My dog and I are well up to defending ourselves against all comers. I've had conversation with other neighbours who've had similar run ins with these dogs. We are going to approach the matter in an intelligent, peaceful manner, realizing that the problem isn't so much the dogs as the owners. We are a small community and a degree of cooperation is necessary for the common good. Respectfully yours, I remain, etc. PS: FYI: "egregious - a., very great, outrageous, flagrant". Your point? Please explain how this word is germane to the discussion at hand. My grasp of the language isn't as good as yours. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:19:26 -0800 From: Todd Birch Subject: Fwd: The Best Worded Pro-Gun Argument That I Have Ever Read Subject: The Best Worded Pro-Gun Argument That I Have Ever Read *As the Supreme Court hears arguments for and against the Chicago, IL, Gun Ban, I offer you another stellar example of a letter (written by a Marine), that places the proper perspective on what a gun means to a civilized society. Interesting take and one you don�t hear much...Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention to the last paragraph of the letter...* *~ ~ ~ ~ ~* *�The Gun Is Civilization�* ** *Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that�s it.* ** *In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.* ** *When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.* ** *The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.* ** *There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we�d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger�s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat - it has no validity when most of a mugger�s potential marks are armed.* ** *People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that�s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.* ** *Then there�s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.* ** *People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don�t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.* ** *The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.* ** *The gun is the only weapon that�s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn�t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn�t both lethal and easily employable.* ** *When I carry a gun, I don�t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I�m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced only persuaded.* ** *I don�t carry it because I�m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn�t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...And that�s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.* ** *So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.* ** *God Bless America* *Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)* *~ ~ ~ ~ ~* * *** */Si vis pacem, para bellum/* ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:37:14 -0500 From: JULES SOBRIAN Subject: 12,16 and 20 > A 20g shell will sit just nicely in the forcing cone of a 12g. You can > then load a 12g shell. Should you fire the gun there would be > catastrophic consequences. > > One gun mixed a 16 ga shell in with his 12 ga ammo on the trap range. > His gun blew-up and he took a trip to the hospital ER the whole 20 > gauge shell will slip into the 12 gauge chamber, if you load another > shell behind it and fire, your gun will explode like a bomb. From > personal experience I beg to differ with some of the above. A 16 gauge shell will seat on its rim in the rim recess of a 12 gauge shotgun and fire. Likewise a 20 gauge shell will fire in a 16 gauge. This happened a lot in Trinidad, where ammunition is/was severely controlled and people shared what they had for the common good. Depending on the dimensions of the forcing cone, a 20 gauge shell will an d can go a fair distance down a 12 gauge barrel before hanging up. I know of only one instance where a surgeon friend of mine took his 20ga 1100 and 12 ga 1100 to hunt out west and somehow wasn't careful enough to separate the shells. I met him on his return at the local sporting goods store from which he had bought the guns and was trying to obtain a new barrel for his 12 ga. There was quite a bulge in it just before the gas ports, but it didn't blow up. This was about forty five years ago; the steel today should be improved over that. Mind you the Rem 1100 had a substantial barrel. Funny thing, I met the same person about two years ago and he denied the entire incident. That's called a selective memory. Jules ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:36:57 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Szpajcher Subject: Debate between competing opinions Clive/ Todd - Given my interest in military history and current affairs, I found Todd's reply to Clive to be relevant, in the context of an essay by Peter Kofod, a former offcer in the U.S. military, which can be read here: http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/rise-praetorian-class especially, the following statement: "These optics reinforce the position of the Praetorian Class as maintainers of public order, convey a message of physical dominance and establish chronic low-level fear among the masses." when taken with Todd's emphatic point: "It would be interesting to be present while you expressed your opinion in a room full of returned soldiers/Marines/airmen. It is easy to beak off when safely ensconced in front of the computer; quite another to put it on the line and say what might result in a well deserved punch in the mouth. I have met you socially, and I think I know how that social interaction would end." While I admire and respect both of you, I find the implied threat of violence toward Clive, in regards to his opinion about the behavior of some soldiers, to be troubling, especially given Todd's generally benevolent nature. I find nothing sacrosanct about "returned soldiers/ Marines/ airmen". What matters is how each individual behaves/ behaved, not the military force as a whole. Do not forget that Timothy McVey, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Russell Williams all fall into the category of "returned soldiers/ Marines/ airmen. If we owe blanket allegiance to those who are "maintainers of public order", because to hold opinions otherwise, would incite violence against us, we are unreservedly in a military-police state. Which is the point that a number of people on this forum have been trying to make. Thanks for the food for thought. Jim Szpajcher Jan 13, 2012 08:37:38 PM, cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca wrote: Clive I wore the uniform for 12 years of my life, and while I'm often amused by your right wing politics and conspiracy theory-like political opinions, your comment about the US Marine snipers have caused me to lose a lot of respect for you. Like all soldiers (including ours), they are not fighting for the government that sent them to Afghanistan and Iraq, but for each other. That is the honour of being a soldier and probably a difficult concept for you to comprehend. If it needs to be explained to you, then it cannot. You may regard soldiers as tools of their imperialist masters, but it is they that keep the enemy at bay so that radical keyboard kommando types can rant freely on public forums. It would be interesting to be present while you expressed your opinion in a room full of returned soldiers/Marines/airmen. It is easy to beak off when safely ensconced in front of the computer; quite another to put it on the line and say what might result in a well deserved punch in the mouth. I have met you socially, and I think I know how that social interaction would end. As for your shooting back should the Americans "try to operate in Canada under their new rules ....", that would make you a fellow 'soldier', giving you the chance to redeem your honour. "Nothing became his life so much as the leaving of it" King Duncan in Shakespeare's 'Macbeth' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, January 14, 2012 3:36 pm From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Re: LETTER: Gun licence provides necessary detail Close, so close, but still no cigar! The gun license only informs police that someone at that residence has obtained a gun license. The lack of a license says nothing about the absence of illegal guns, or violent criminals. Nor does holding a license guarantee that there are any lawfully owned guns present. Furthermore, all the purported benefits of licensing may be had under the old FAC certification system at a fraction of the cost and without demonizing and alienating the RFC. The one documented benefit of a gun license or certificate is that those people who get one are 1/3 as likely to ever be involved in crime or violence as the general public. Of course these people would be that way regardless, so the license merely identifies them as safer than average. It does not make them that way. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Sherbrooke, NS mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, January 14, 2012 3:40 pm From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Re: Russian finds stockpile of Kalashnikov assault rifles in wooden crates purchased to heat home Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca That old fellow just missed his chance to be his village's saviour in the event of violent assault by gangs, warlords, or the army. Had he secretly stockpiled them against a day of dire need, when he could have issued them to an ad hoc defensive force, he may well have averted a future catastrophe. Of course if caught at it, he would pay a severe price. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Sherbrooke, NS mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 16:36:34 -0600 From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: NFA MEDIA RELEASE: CONSERVATIVE PARTY GUN REGISTRY AD MISLEADING Re: NFA MEDIA RELEASE: CONSERVATIVE PARTY GUN REGISTRY AD MISLEADING What is truly "misleading" is Mr. Harper & his so-called Conservatives' cynical use of Bill C-19, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, By introducing Bill C-19 the Conservatives are squandering ALL of the publics' revulsion to the Firearms Act. But Mr. Harper is merely deleting the "long gun registry". Yet Mr. Harper is purposefully keeping licensing - the worst part of the Firearms Act completely intact. With the licencing mandate of the Firearms Act, Criminal Code sections 91(1), 92(1), and 117.03 now firmly endorsed by the Conservatives, the Government can confiscate every firearm in Canada without any arrests, without laying any charges, without any trials, and without any convictions. Ms. Wendy Cukier is most likely wetting her pants in delight. The Liberals under Jean Chrétien could not have played this better. The only sane response is open, peaceful, non-violent civil non- compliance. Edward B. Hudson DVM, MS Secretary Canadian Unlicensed Firearms Owners Association Association canadienne des propriétaires d'armes san permis 402 Skeena Crt. Saskatoon Saskatchewan S7K 4H2 (306) 242-2379 (306) 230-8929 edwardhudson@shaw.ca www.cufoa.ca On 9-Jan-12, at 10:19 PM, Dennis & Hazel Young wrote: > CANADA'S NATIONAL FIREARMS ASSOCIATION MEDIA RELEASE > CONSERVATIVE PARTY GUN REGISTRY AD MISLEADING > >>> > "We ask the Conservative Government to ... fully implement their > party's firearms and > property rights policies... ." >>> > http://www.nfa.ca/news/conservative-party-gun-registry-ad-misleading ------------------------------ Date: Sat, January 14, 2012 11:16 pm From: "Phil Hewkin" Subject: Fw: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre Re: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre From: Phil Hewkin Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:51 PM To: Brian Lilley Subject: Re: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre AYE, Brian. your heart is in the right place, for sure. I would VERY MUCH like to see My family, friends, everyone I know including myself, decriminalized in my lifetime. With the possibility of an economic collapse stateside, as well as the EU, this is a similar situation as in Germany, pre-World War 2. Having watched JPFO's docu. INNOCENTS BETRAYED on youtube, the air seems ripe for a future genocide, to me. Have you seen the footage of FEMA CAMPS?....they appear to be ready for some apocalyptic event. just because I'm paranoid does not mean that people aren't out to get me. The Firearms Act actually confirms my suspicion. phil From: Brian Lilley Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 4:59 PM To: philhewkin@telus.net Subject: Re: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre Phil, I hear your frustration but rest assured, the PM is hearing about this. Any correspondence that falls within a cabinet minister's portfolio is passed along in this manner but the PMO keeps track of what is written about. Keep encouraging your friends to write, no cabinet minister likes getting a pile of letters like this passed on from PMO. Brian - ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Hewkin To: pm@pm.gc.ca Cc: SN-Byline Sent: Sat Jan 14 19:48:18 2012 Subject: Fw: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre Dear M.F. Bustos. You have assumed in error, that this communication is only in the interest of Mr Vic Toews. We elected the Conservative party of Canada, and gave Stephen Harper a stong, stable Majority government, so that this sort of garbage would not happen. Honest Canadians legally obtained private property is being confiscated without compensation, criminalization intact. We elected Stephen Harper, NOT THE RCMP. I INSIST that this communication reach Prime Minister Stephen Harper. His intervention on this matter is paramount. Phil Hewkin. - -----Original Message----- From: Prime Minister/Premier ministre Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:42 AM To: Phil Hewkin Cc: Vic Toews, P.C., M.P. Subject: Office of the Prime Minister / Cabinet du Premier ministre Dear Mr. Hewkin: Thank you for writing to the Prime Minister. In your e-mail, you raised an issue that falls within the portfolio of the Honourable Vic Toews, Minister of Public Safety. Please be assured that your comments have been carefully noted. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your e-mail to Minister Toews. I am certain that the Minister will wish to give your views every consideration. For more information on the Government's initiatives, you may wish to visit the Prime Minister's Web site, at www.pm.gc.ca. Once again, thank you for taking the time to write. M.F. Bustos Manager/Gestionnaire Executive Correspondence Services for the Prime Minister's Office Services de la correspondance de la haute direction pour le Cabinet du Premier ministre >>> From : Phil Hewkin philhewkin@telus.net Received : 12 Jan 2012 >>> 11:16:27 AM >>> >>> Subject : reclassification >>>> Dear Stephen Harper. The recent reclassification of the Army-Jaeger .22 and the AP80 .22 rimfire rifles by the RCMP is clearly indicative that gun owners will continue to be targeted and harassed because of Bill C-68, the firearms Act. These guns are not any more danger than any other .22 rifle. It is the RCMP proving they can and will ban ANY gun and confiscate without any accountability or financial compensation to law abiding Canadians. I hope that you will do something about this, As I am certain that you remember Ann Mc Lellan saying "gun owners are silly to say that we are going to confiscate their guns" And, Allan Rock made the same empty promise. In fact, Bill C-68 LICENSING automatically criminalizes gun owners, guaranteeing guilt, no matter the charge. (reverse onus) please fix these gun laws, by completely repealing the firearms act as promised. the "long gun registry" is not the only offensive part of the gun laws. sincerely. Phil Hewkin Prince George B.C. philhewkin@telus.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, January 15, 2012 12:04 am From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: SUN NEWS: BUMBLING BUREAUCRATS BY BRIAN LILLEY SUN NEWS NETWORK: BUMBLING BUREAUCRATS - January 13, 2012 20:28 Brian Lilley dissects how bureaucrats have far too much power in Canada. John Robson joins with more. http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/search/BUMBLING%20BUREAUCRATS/bumbling-bureaucrats/1389825983001 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:35:55 -0800 From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> Subject: RE: Debate between competing opinions > As for your shooting back should the Americans "try to operate in > Canada under their new rules ....", that would make you a fellow > 'soldier', giving you the chance to redeem your honour. I expect the time of Canadian/British military shooting at Yanks has long past. NATO, let alone the mutual military and police integration, take our soldiers' allegiance beyond the old United Nations blue hats. Just as American military operated a police state in New Orleans at the time of Hurricane Katrina, and just as I expect most (although not all) of the US forces to step on the necks of fellow Americans under the new powers Obama quite unconstitutionally gave them, I believe most and probably all Canadian forces will step on the necks of fellow Canadians or Americans should they be ordered to. The only way to avoid this situation is to try the political and military leadership for war crimes, crimes against humanity and possibly genocide. (Dalliare did a great job of facilitating that during his tour in Rwanda. Such a man cannot be trusted when the chips are down). As my dear departed mum used to say, "If one of your friends put his hand on a hot stove, would you do the same?" Instigating violence and killing innocents is never right, no matter who your friends are. If you are true friends you will not allow each other to commit such injustice. Cordially, Clive Edwards "Just because I don't believe in being a victim doesn't mean I believe in being a bully." "Just because I believe in non-aggression doesn't mean I believe in non-violence." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:46:09 -0800 From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> Subject: RE: 12,16 and 20 > There was quite a bulge in it just before the gas ports, but it didn't > blow up. I once had an H&K USP .45 blow up in my hand. I shouldn't have been using lead bullets in their kinky rifling. The floor plate on the mag blew out, the frame shattered into thirty or forty pieces and the slide was perched cockeyed on the rails. Aside from hands that stung like the strap in primary school there was no damage to me or anyone else. The bitch of it is, when that happens in the US you can just order a new frame for two or three hundred dollars. Nichols in Canada insists you buy a whole new gun, even when the slide and barrel are undamaged (I had the gunsmith I was shooting with that day check it out). The reason? In Canada the frame or receiver IS legally the gun. H&K refused to get involved because I'm in Canada. Cordially, Clive Edwards "Just because I don't believe in being a victim doesn't mean I believe in being a bully." "Just because I believe in non-aggression doesn't mean I believe in non-violence." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:55:20 -0800 From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> Subject: RE: The Best Worded Pro-Gun Argument That I Have Ever Read *So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.* ** *God Bless America* *Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)* *~ ~ ~ ~ ~* * *** */Si vis pacem, para bellum/* ** Thanks for re-posting that, Todd. I read it several years ago and it has lost none of its truth or power. One should not need any further arguments in support for the possession and use of firearms in civilian hands. Cordially, Clive Edwards "Just because I don't believe in being a victim doesn't mean I believe in being a bully." "Just because I believe in non-aggression doesn't mean I believe in non-violence." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:28:24 -0800 From: "Clive Edwards" <45clive@telus.net> Subject: RE: LETTER: Gun license provides necessary detail > The police forces across Canada, will, as at present, still be able to > determine if firearms are present at a location they might attend. This > is due to the fact that law->abiding individuals who wish to purchase > firearms, will, as in the past, have to take the Canadian Firearms > Safety Course and if successful, be issued a possession and acquisition > license. Following this, their names will be entered in the CPIC system. > Case closed. > > I personally take affront to, and would like Nenn to explain, his > statement regarding firearms owners' "laziness and contempt of law". > Where is our contempt of law when we >have abided by all that is > required (by law) to purchase firearms? > >Joseph Michaels >Nanaimo Fish and Game Protective Association Firearms Legislation Officer I agree with your statement of facts concerning Firearms Licensing, Joseph. Unfortunately I disagree with your follow-up. The case is certainly NOT closed. The Jews in Nazi Germany were among the most law abiding of citizens. For them, registration was just the beginning of their nightmare. Registration of their firearms was used to disarm them. Registration of their "Jewishness" soon followed. They trusted their government enough to voluntarily disarm and genuflect to the authoritarian state. They trusted their leaders who said to comply fully with the law. Many if not most leaders of our firearms community also promote full compliance with bad and dangerous laws. There are between three and four million gun owners in Canada who do not have licenses and cannot register their guns. These people do not trust either their government or the leaders of the firearms organizations that promote compliance. These people have proven their grasp of history and their independence of thought. They have no intention of sucking up to power and trying to curry favour with the jackboots and jailers. I give the members of my club the facts as they evolve. I tell them compliance and non-compliance are both dangerous and only they can examine their situation and determine what to do. I suggest they do not consider it "case closed" if they are willing to be politically active and let their views be known in their communities, in Victoria and especially in Ottawa. Supporting many pro rights groups, not just gun rights groups, is a good idea because it is not just our gun rights that are being attacked. I am disappointed, Joseph, that you have given up the fight if you ever were in it. I don't believe you are serving the members of the Nanaimo Fish and Game Protective Association truly or well. I would ask you to reconsider your understanding of the situation in light of what I have said. Cordially, Clive Edwards Firearms Chair Chilliwack Fish and Game Protective Association ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V14 #884 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)