From - Fri Oct 30 16:04:20 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09149; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:44:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19424; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:35 -0600 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199810301523.JAA19424@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #668 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00007ba2 Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, October 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 668 In this issue: Re: Verifiers "JUSTICE MINISTER: 'HOMICIDE RATES AT 30 YEAR LOW'" BREITKREUZ WRITES.., Collective versus Individual Rights. New Voices, New ideas. UN breaching its own Universal Declaration of Human Rights Re: Grandfathering SBH's Supervised shooting. Re: Hunting Without an FAC Two-Faced Liberals National Firearms Association Member Benefits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:18:30 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Verifiers >Just had an interesting call from a friend who has run a 30 year firearms business in >Manitoba. He inquired today at the Manitoba CFO's office about what is required to become > verifier. He was told in no uncertain terms that unless he purchased a computer to >install the famous CD Rom, that there was no way they would certify him as a verifier. Why would any sane person WANT to be a verifier? That is volunteering to work for the federal government -- at NO pay -- to assist it in damaging everyone in the firearms community. If the government comes up short -- and is UNABLE to supply the verifiers that it needs -- then C-68 will go null and void because the government is REQUIRING us to do things that we CANNOT do because the GOVERNMENT failed to provide the necessary verifiers. The government cannot fault US for not doing things that the GOVERNMENT has made it impossible to do, and such government failures have the effect of rendering the government's demands NULL AND VOID. Additionally, any person who takes on the job of verifier is at severe risk of criminalizing himself -- particularly if he depends on the famous FRT CD ROM for the "identification" of firearms. It is utterly incapable of "identifying" firearms, because it is riddled with errors, omissions and duplications. The "identifying" data on the CD ROM is totally inadequate, and one who relis on it will continually be making "false or misleading" statements to get a registration certificate for himself "or any other person." That is a criminal offence (FA s. 106 and 109) punishable by up to five years in prison. Any verifier is also laying himself wide open to civil suits where his "identification" damages the interests of EITHER a dealer or his customer, as well as ANYONE whose interests are damaged by a verifier's "identification." It is a VERY risky job. >They explained to him that every transaction would require him to call a sanctioned >"EXPERT" to his place of business. That is excellent. They do not HAVE the "experts" to send -- so this is going to FAIL. >So much for free enterprise!!!. Not only do we have to >put up with this invasion of our business, but they expect us to spend thousands of >dollars to continue in a business for which we pay outrageous annual fees. No, it is THEIR responsibility to provide the computer-literate verifier with his own computer to serve YOU. >Another thought we both have is what else is on this CDRom. Is ther also a key that will >allow them to monitor our every transaction, minute by minute?? Ever read George Orwells >"1984"?.Little did Orwell know that he was only out 15 years. Hey, it's not the STORE's computer. The verifier has to supply his own! >Also my friend asked the CFO's office what was to stop the "Verifier" from going into >some potential customers home under official pretentions and possibly buying firearms for >further re-sale. The answer was that there would be no conflict of interest as he would >be doing this on a voluntary basis. Seems to me that there is a slight analomy here. The >verifier now has an advantage over the legitimate firearms dealer, who pays fees,complies >with all the rigamarole and now has to put up with officially sanctioned competition >Well thought plan by Emperor Jean and the Cretinites No, not at all well thought out. They believed that every genuine firearms expert in the nation would be eager to volunteer as a non-paid verifier -- but that has not happened. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:18:40 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "JUSTICE MINISTER: 'HOMICIDE RATES AT 30 YEAR LOW'" PUBLICATION: The Province DATE: 98.10.28 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A20 SOURCE: Canadian Press DATELINE: OTTAWA ILLUSTRATION: Photo: (Anne) McLellan Justice minister: `Homicide rates at 30-year low' OTTAWA -- Despite a perception created by the media that crime is getting worse, Canadians should feel safer because statistics show the homicide rate is at its lowest in three decades, says Justice Minister Anne McLellan. Figures released yesterday by Statistics Canada show the homicide rate dropped nine per cent in 1997 from 1996 to its lowest point since 1969. It's part of a North American trend that has resulted in a 30-year low. Yet people still feel they are in greater danger than ever before, said McLellan. ``I think the media feed on the stories of crime. What is the expression you use? If it bleeds, it leads?'' she asked. ``I would like to see big headlines today or tomorrow in all your papers or lead items on the news saying `Homicide Rate at 30-year Low' because that speaks to the fact that we are turning things around and that we're doing a lot of things right in this society.'' But McLellan stressed that the drop in homicides -- as well as a decrease in shooting deaths -- is no reason to abandon tougher -control laws that will require owners to start registering firearms Dec. 1. Canada still has one of the highest homicide rates in the industrialized world, behind the U.S. The 581 homicides recorded in 1997 were 54 fewer than in 1996. The 1997 rate of 1.92 homicides per 100,000 people was a third of the 6.7 per 100,000 in the U.S., but above European rates. England and Wales, for example, had a rate of one for every 100,000 people, and France had 1.66. ``Yes, there's been a decrease in the homicide rate, but close to 600 people in this country out of 30 million people are losing their lives every year,'' McLellan said. ``We have much work left to do and, as I've indicated, I believe that our -licensing and registration program will help create a culture of safety and security surrounding firearms in this country that will reduce homicides by firearms.'' Neil Boyd, a criminology professor at Simon Fraser University, said he believes the decrease in homicides can be explained in part by an aging population and the fact that there is a smaller percentage of young men than before. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:18:53 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: BREITKREUZ WRITES.., October 28, 1998 The Honorable Andy Scott Solicitor General House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Dear Minister: Re: Funding to Fight Organized Crime Cut - $200 million Wasted on Registering Legally-owned Firearms Thank you for sending me a copy of the September/October '98 edition of the RCMP Gazette. I was wondering if you could explain to Canadians why a Minister who says he is "deeply concerned about organized crime in our society" would cut funding to the RCMP thereby jeopardizing their investigations of organized crime while blindly supporting his government's waste of hundreds of millions registering 20 million of legally-owned firearms that is guaranteed not improve public safety one iota or help get real criminals off our streets? Here are a few quotes from RCMP Inspector Ben Soave from the Gazette article, "Secrets of Success: Reflections from the boss of Operation Omerta." * My job is enforcement. All I want is the funds and resources, support and the necessary tools to go out and do my job. * In fact, Soave says, police in Montreal actually "came close" back in the 80s but, among other problems, ran out of money before getting enough evidence to prosecute. Indeed, Operation Omerta faced a similar fate. In January, the operation ran out of money. It was a critical moment. "So I went to CISO (Criminal Intelligence Services Ontario) who provided us with additional funds. An that was the only way this operation was kept alive,'"says Soave. "Otherwise what would have happened is we would have dropped this case for lack of funding. We had no results (at that point) and this group would have remained untouchable and would have gone on until the next agency would have picked up on it and started over." * "It was an uphill battle. The whole time we had my own superiors and some in the Toronto police constantly pressuring the team for immediate results or to drop the investigation because it was too lengthy and costly. All we had were intercepts." * His unit's success did come in spite of being underfunded, in spite of having to go begging to CISO for the necessary money to complete the investigation. But it was a close call. Omerta's financial crunch came just six months before its conclusion. Had the money not been available, had the project shut down in January, a year and a half of expensive, time consuming work would have been wasted. There's a lesson and, of course, another message, in that too. .....continued on Page 2 - -2- * Even in the glow of fresh success, Soave's mood is tempered by continuing cuts. The night before Omerta moved in and made its busts, he read an e-mail informing him that he was to freeze his overtime and travel budget, "an I'll be cut 20% of that. I cannot operate. Not if we're serious about organized crime." * "To take on a major organized criminal group, not necessarily of (the Cuntrera-Caruana) magnitude, but any of the groups we have here in Toronto, those investigations are long-term and we do not have the funding. The result is that we will continue to allow these people to be untouchable, like some are already." Your "deep concern about organized crime" is not demonstrated by your actions. Your government's useless firearm registration scheme has already cost $200 million and according to the Canadian Firearms Centre will cost another $50-$60 million a year to operate. How much are you and your government spending to fight organized crime? Which public safety priority are you and your government most deeply concerned about, having government firearm officers terrorize honest citizens who happen to own firearms or letting biker gangs, Colombian drug cartels, East Asian triads, Caribbean posses, Russian mobs and the Mafia terrorize Canadian citizens? Actions speak louder than words. Your budgets prove where your "deep concern" is! Sincerely, Garry Breitkreuz, MP Yorkton-Melville. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:18:35 -0600 From: Dan MacInnis Subject: Collective versus Individual Rights. This is the crutch of the issue. (C68) Collective Rights versus Individual Rights. Chretien, educated in Quebec, does not, never did, understand Individual Rights. I shall not bother to list the violations he has supported. To be fair with him, he simply does not grasp the importance Canadians (outside of Quebec) place on Individual Rights. (see the language debate in Quebec today) Ignorance, in the true sense of the word. When Rock proposed C68, Chretien never thought it through. Martin knew it would ruin Rock, so what?? Got him out of the way, fast. Anne McLellan was so anxious to be Justice Minister she never figured out it was offered to her only to get her out of the way of Ms. Stewart, the annointed female in cabinet, daughter of Robert Nixon, former leader of the Liberals in Ontario. Idle Annie was blindsided. She deserves more pity than criticism. Can we take advantage of this? Yes, if we offer a way out for the Liberals, a face saving idea. Some way for them to drop or revise C68 and keep some pride. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:18:46 -0600 From: Dan MacInnis Subject: New Voices, New ideas. Now we have the objections to C68 we should have been espousing years ago. (David Leskowski & Jim Dowdell writings here). Gentlemen, I agree %100 with your views, especially that of others critical of us here, when actually they are trying to either discourage us one by one or attack our arguments with statistics. But be prepared now that you have put your thoughts to keyboard. I have received email direct from people attacking my financial status, political views, motives etc. you name it because of my writings here. One person demanded to know why I was not rich, if I was so smart. I am not running for office, so my personal financial status is private, but if owning a condominium in the centre of a city, worth a cool $500,000 at last offer, a summer place in Montreal and Prince Edward Island, being able to go where I want when I want (I just finished a personal tour from Alberta to Quebec at my own expense) is poor so be it. I am part of the elites I criticize. Olde money, Olde Power brokering. Today I can call three provincial premiers by their first name, and a few Senators, plus the odd Luietenant Governor. Bragging? No, I hope not, because I at odds with a couple of good friends over C68. We were supporters of Chretien years ago, he has lost that support. He is tout fini. Watch. NO, my friends, it is not in the ballot booth these people are defeated, it is in Digests like this. The backroom boy's are reading, or having it read for them, and clipped. Civil disobedience is only safe if the numbers support it. See Kent State. See the truckers in Quebec today. See the hog farmers in Quebec, I could list more. More and more people are seeing C68 for what it is. Was the Rally a success? By any standard, it was. It has people talking about the issue now, we made headlines, plus many editorialist, pro and con, took time to write about it and us. So it WAS a success. Lets pat ourselves on the back for it. And 'keep up the bi#%@ng' as I have been encouraged to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:37:00 -0600 From: ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: UN breaching its own Universal Declaration of Human Rights The following excerpts are from http://www.pcvp.org/firearms/Intl/unlong2.html In his statement to the first regional workshop in September 1997, Tom Mason accused the UN of breaching the spirit of its own Universal Declaration of Human Rights. "We are discussing rights which are seen as inalienable to individuals regardless of state prerogative. The importance of maintaining these rights is a factor in preserving democracy," he said. "Firearms regulation is a matter of internal domestic policy, not an international issue." The NRA questioned whether firearm regulation "is within the mandate of the United Nations," and warned that the Commission on Crime Prevention "recommends United Nations' involvement in the internal affairs of member states." Mason cited "feeling in some circles that there is a concerted UN effort to drastically restrict firearms." He recommended that future United Nations meetings on this topic be "open to the firearms community in general," and asked that the UN's deliberations on firearm regulation be delayed for at least a year. ... "The role of the UN is controversial in the US. The United States Congress recently rejected full funding for the UN... what the UN is currently doing is folly and in the long run can only harm itself... this attitude has placed the UN on a collision course with the United States." Referring to the UN's "biased and closed policy effort striking at core rights in our Nation," he called the final workshop in New Delhi, India: "another skirmish in what is becoming a major political battle involving the United Nations and its relationship to the United States." ... The NRA spokesman also presented each workshop with six guidelines, which he said "should govern the discussion of any declaration of principles." Little attention was paid to these until Mr Mason announced to the author and others during a coffee break: "Of course, those six points in my statement don't just come from the NRA. They're taken verbatim from a letter from Jonathan Winer to the NRA. That's the State Department speaking... This represents the policy of the United States." Mr Winer is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for International Narcotics & Law Enforcement Affairs in Washington DC. The six policy points as presented by the NRA are: 1. There should be no requirement for any country to come up to some arbitrary 'world' or 'international' standard in its firearms regulations. 2. There should be no establishment of a central registry of firearms or owners of firearms. 3. There should be no surrendering of sovereign right to enact laws or determine punishment for any crime relating to the illicit traffic in firearms or related components. 4. No nation should have to accept evaluation by another nation for compliance with any agreement. 5. There should be no permanent entity or group to police compliance with any proposed agreement. 6. There should be no involvement with any international organisation in policing or enforcing any possible agreement. Read it all at http://GunsSaveLives.com/ To subscribe to GunsSaveLives e-mail, send the following to mailto:majordomo@pobox.com subscribe gsl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:09 -0600 From: "Brett Glaysher" Subject: Re: Grandfathering SBH's DAT wrote: >They cannot do that under the law as it is written. One is either >"grandfathered" or not -- just as one is either pregnant or not. It would >take a change in the law made by PARLIAMENT -- and they do NOT want to open >C-68 up in Parliament, because that would be an admission that it is >FLAWED. >Such a change cannot be made by Order in Council. What about pre 46 (?) inherited SBH's? From new license application, schedule 3, part B, line 8 (whew!) - Are you applying to inherit a handgun manufactured before 1946 105mm or less 25 or 32 calibre inherit from spouse, brother, sister, parent . I'm not grandfathered, but hope to inherit a Colt 1903 .32 pistol from me Pa eventually. Assuming it was actually manufactured before 1946 (how to tell?), I'll have a legally registered .32 SBH, but will I then be grandfathered? Brett. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:14 -0600 From: "Ralph A. Lane" Subject: Supervised shooting. The question of supervised shooting is one that warrants careful consideration. Whilst the writers of laws and regulations have omitted clarification of the term "supervised" I respectfully suggest that anyone charged with this responsibilty, be in a position to physically interrupt any inappropriate behaviour by the student or novice shooter. For enlightening reading, try Chapter 8 "Safe Handling and Conduct in the Field" particularly page 84 "It didn't go off!" in a book called "The Better Shot" by non other than Ken Davies of Holland and Holland. ISBN 1-870948-64-5 I am fortunate to have been in Ken's company many times during the late seventies, and know him to be the proverbial straight shooter. Ralph A. Lane. ABM21 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:23 -0600 From: "Robin Leech" Subject: Re: Hunting Without an FAC Yes, you can hunt without an FAC (assume even that one never has had an FAC). Many teenagers, from 12-17 hunt with someone who has an FAC, usually a parent. When the teenager becomes 18 years of age, he/she may apply for the FAC. In fact, I have had 12-15 year old boys and girls take the FAC course. They are grandfathered to the present conditions. That is, they took my course, passed it, and their papers are held till they turn 18, at which time, they will have the same FAC as I do at present. The conditions of hunting are that the person without the FAC must be in what is called "arm's length control" of the person who has the FAC. The person with the FAC, and the person without the FAC, can each be carrying a hunting firearm. Robin Leech ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:28 -0600 From: Jon & Eileen Taylor Subject: Two-Faced Liberals Remember the indignant bluster of Emporer Jean Cretin when he accused the NDP Procter of emulating Linda Tripp by reporting the musings of Motor-Mouth Andy Scott on a plane to P.E.I. to a seatmate that poor old Andy couldnt even remember the next day?? Now we have the suddenly remembered statements of A.P.E.C. Chairman Gerald Morin as belatedly reported by a R.C.M.P. undercover man,who has sat on this very relevant information for 6 months. The co-incidence of this sudden recollection can probably be explained away by the Cretinites and will be beleived by all. Those of you who are harder to convince should call me as soon as possible as my stock of used bridges and ocean front property in Arizona is rapidly being grabbed up. At the Gun Show in Prince Albert last weekend, which is the home of Gerald Morin, the general consensus was that he is a highly respected member of the Bar, and a man who would not knuckle under to pressure by Ottawa to produce a whitewash report giving the Govt. a clean bill of health. In fact mention was made of the brilliant career move of certain parties in reporting this alleged conversation Why has not Cretin been crying foul over this eavesdropped conversation. Could this be an example of the Lieberal double standard??? Jon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:23:32 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter, SHOP NFA" Subject: National Firearms Association Member Benefits We have added several additional Member Benefits which are in addition to your National Firearms Association Membership. 1. You get discounted rates at Howard Johnson Hotels, Travelodges, Days Inn and Ramada Hotels. 2. You get discount rates on Auto Rentals from Hertz Rent-a-Car and Tilden/National Rent-a-Car. 3. You get a discount on subscriptions and re-subscriptions to THE WESTERN PRODUCER newspaper. We will be adding a few NEW Member Benefits shortly! If you would like details on these programs, send an e-mail to jhinter@shopnfa.com Jim Hinter NFA Calgary (403) 640-1110 fx: (403) 640-1144 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #668 **********************************