From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #779 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, December 30 2003 Volume 06 : Number 779 In this issue: Re: Column: Slaying seems to sneer at justice Re: Where can a gun-owner turn for support ?? Ruger Automatics Re: The home gunsmith Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #775 Re: Where can a gun-owner turn for support ?? Re: Letter: SUN RATIONAL AND FAIR ON FIREARMS CONTROL Canada Customs and gun parts re: Ruger Automatics Thank You Poll: Gun Safety Poor Brits.... Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #775 RE: China accepts the value of property: Home built ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:31:01 -0600 (CST) From: "jim davies" Subject: Re: Column: Slaying seems to sneer at justice >> Although Toronto police have dealt with retaliatory killings among >> various gang members in recent years, the bold Saturday-afternoon >> execution of a young man named Adrian Roy Baptiste appears to be linked >> to a recent verdict by a Hamilton court that acquitted him... >> >> "Right at this minute, it's hard to say for sure if it's a result of >> that particular verdict," Supt. Ron Taverner told The Globe and Mail >> yesterday, "but it looks like it..." >> >> Complicating the case is the fact that Mr. Baptiste was allegedly a >> member of the Bloods gang which operates in the Rexdale area and whose >> traditional rivals, the Crips, have been involved in numerous fatal >> shootings over the years, and that others may have wanted him dead for >> reasons not related to the trial... >> >> "But the investigators have already been to Hamilton," Supt. Taverner >> said, "and they're taking the possibility [that the shooting was in >> reaction to the acquittal] very, very seriously... >> >> "And if this is what it is, it's certainly ramping things up a notch. >> > "Whether we like a verdict or not, that's the system and we have to > respect it." >> >> Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino...said yesterday >> that "if this is, in fact, what happened, it's a clear indication" that >> the courts are no longer immune to what he called "the law of the >> jungle," and "that's of very grave concern to me." >> >> Even David Bayliss, the Toronto criminal lawyer who represented Mr. >> Baptiste at the Hamilton trial, was operating yesterday on the >> assumption that the killing may have been a particularly crude brand of >> street justice... >> >> And if it was that, it was particularly senseless," Mr. Bayliss said -- >> a cold-blooded execution to respond to what was "essentially an >> accident," the shooting of Mr. Mingo... >> >> Mr. Bayliss described Mr. Baptiste as "one of the brightest clients I've >> ever had," and said they had discussed him trying to turn his life >> around, perhaps even with a career in law enforcement - a field that >> because he had only a youth record, not an adult one, he would not have >> been precluded from entering... >> >> Born in Edmonton and one of 13 children, Mr. Baptiste "grew up in bad >> neighbourhoods and got into the sorts of trouble that kids in bad >> neighbourhoods get into. But basically, he was a smart kid, and I think >> there was a core of goodness there..." >> >> The only description police have of a suspect is of a young black man, >> in his late teens or early 20s, wearing dark clothing with a hood and >> apparently moving on foot... >> >> Though the shooting occurred in midafternoon and the area was busy, >> Supt. Taverner said police are having only "limited success" with >> potential witnesses, whom he described as frankly intimidated by the >> gunfire and gang activity so common to the neighbourhood... >> >> The violence is so pervasive and so bold that homicide detectives >> routinely find few co-operative witnesses... >> >> >> But never before has it appeared so plain that there is a subculture >> whose members are utterly contemptuous not only of the police, who >> purport to solve murders, but also of the courts, which attempt to try >> these cases fairly. Doncha just love it when a plan comes together? How many years of painstaking disembowelling of our societal institutions by the Lieberals has it taken to get here? How many Toronto area Lieberals have been absolutely indispensible in dreaming up and ramrodding utopian airy-fairy legislation through Parliament to arrive at this juncture? The last paragraph is an apt testament to their efforts. We have arrived at a justice system that combines outrageous expense [ie gun boondoggle] with total uselessness. This is further aided by Lieberal multiculti with it's imported cultures of violence and strictures against plain speaking. And, it is all happening in Toronto, center of the Universe. I see another majority Lieberal government in the next election. A slam dunk. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:33:40 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: Where can a gun-owner turn for support ?? "Karl Schrader" wrote: >> Seeing the NFA ripped to pieces by one Rick Lowe, Thanks for the vote of confidence Karl, but the NFA ripped itself to pieces by leaving two corrupt oligarchs at the helm. And NFA members (like you perhaps?) who allowed it to happen and continue on once serious problems were obvious are more to blame than anyone else. Just to keep things in perspective, Peter Cronhelm has finally thrown in the towel in disgust with Hinter/Tomlinson - I didn't have anything to do with that. Tom Zinck in Ontario just announced on the Gunnutz bulletin board that his support for the "National Executive" has ended because of Hinter/Tomlinson corruption - I didn't have anything to do with that, either. In fact, about a year ago Tom was complaining about my postings regarding the NFA, just as you are doing now. Would you like a copy of that old email of his? Nor did I have anything to do with all the NFA officers and Directors who have resigned over the last two years - wasn't that a wakeup call to people like you when everybody was resigning rather than be associated with people like Hinter and Tomlinson? Do you need a list of names or what? You figure everyone else should just make the NFA (or any other group) work while you just go along for the ride? Where do you go for support? You could try actually doing something for yourself rather than naming a bunch of people you expect to do things for you - and blaming other people because you don't like what they said or pointed out. I, along with Gordon, Bruce, and others, pointed out the crap that was going on within the NFA and said where it was leading to. If you don't like that - - and the predicted results that are coming to pass - then that is just your rough luck. BTW, if you think Hinter and his version of the NFA get a rough ride here... you should check out the Gunnutz online bulletin board. Downright ugly. >> Who is this Rick Lowe anyway ?? His long dissertations, which sometimes >> are occupying half a digest, contain some justified criticisms but >> generally are only longwinded expressions of this one man's opinions, >> who seems to have lots of time on his hands to produce these pieces and >> being biased like hell. Ah well, if those postings are so biased and in error than surely someone like you who obviously takes the time to read through them rather than simply skip them should have no trouble whatsoever refuting the errors and omissions. Amusing. You whine on the one point about the lack of input and effort from Digest subscribers at one point and then turn around and whine about somebody who DOES provide input and put in some effort. If somebody slipped a gold brick into your pocket, you'd probably complain about the weight. >> So, what is there left to do for a member of a threatened minority ? >> Crawl into hiding and hope not to get noticed and attacked? Well, that person could actually take the initiative and do something themselves without waiting for somebody else to always do it for them! Just a thought, mind you... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:35:49 -0600 (CST) From: "Todd Birch" Subject: Ruger Automatics In the current "The Complete Book of the 1911" published by 'Guns & Ammo' Magazine, serving police officer and gun writer Massad Ayoob states that his department issues the Ruger .45 ACP P90. I don't know if this the same gun as the "Ruger Mk 2" being mentioned on the Digest. To me that is my bull barreled Ruger .22lr. I'm sure that the Ruger has a market around the world with police organizations as it could not survive on the market through civilian sales alone. There are a lot of Colt 1911 clones out there competing in a tough market. Some are patterned after the original single action trigger design while others are offering true double action, double action only, etc., etc. Jeff Cooper once defined the double action semiautomatic pistol as "an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem". I tend to agree, but what the hell do I know? I've never been shot at or shot at another human being. There appears to be a resurgence of interest in both the .45 ACP cartridge and pistols so chambered. One has to presume that this is driven by empirical evidence gathered in the real world of police and military combat experience. Self styled "experts", some of whom post on this Digest dismiss the opinions of Cooper, Ayoob and others as "good ol' Yankee bull s***" and waving the patrioitic banner of the Colt .45 1911 leaving me wonder what real life experience they are basing their opinions on. The debate has been ongoing since the appearance of the 9mm P08 and the .45 1911. Two world wars and countless other combats have not yet settled the matter. In my unqualified opinion, any handgun cartridge that I could not effectively harvest a deer with is definitely not a cartridge to engage the most dangerous creature on earth - another human who wants to kill me. That excludes the 9mm and makes the .45 ACP marginal under less than ideal conditions - up close and personal. Since I can't hunt with a .45, I may never know. I would apply this to rifle cartridges as well. It amuses me that the .223/5.56mm round is considered to be inadequate for most hunting purposes but we arm our soldiers with such varmint rifles. In my humble, unqualified opinion, of course...... Todd Birch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:16:08 -0600 (CST) From: David M Subject: Re: The home gunsmith >> Subject: Re: The Home Gunsmith >> >> This is fascinating stuff. As a newcomer who doesn't necessarily >> subscribe to the right-wing vision in a lot of areas (but I'm >> learning a lot from reading the Firearms Act) I want to know some >> things. By the way, I'm a "federale" parole officer with 19 years >> experience. So, this fellow was building a "machine gun" at home. >> How come? What was the idea? He got four years. Did he have a record >> (or, in British parlance, "form") for threatening or paramilitary >> behaviour? Was he a member of the Ulster Defence >> Association or another outfit of similar ideology? >> >> Enquiring minds want to know. Hi Phil, I don't know a great deal more than was on the web site but from what I gather elsewhere (Cybershooters and vaguely remembered press items) he had no criminal record or links to anything remotely terrorist or organised crime. His crime is that he has a strong interest in the design of firearms and is a keen amateur metalworker of the sort who can be found buying Popular Mechanics magazine in any book store. He built his machine gun as an engineering project to see how it could be done. I made the point elsewhere that "in another time and place, the Warsaw Ghetto springs to mind having watched the movie "The Pianist" last night, this man would be hailed as a hero of the resistance and a brilliant innovator. In saner, less PC times, Britain would have been proud to claim an inventive genius such as Mr. Luty as one of their own." Incidentally I have a colleague at work who has built himself a working scale model gatling gun in .22lr simply because he likes making guns. I have another friend who built himself a competition winning handgun chambered for 7.62x39 because he wanted to and has the knowhow because he makes his living by repairing guns. The British firearms laws are so wrong and so evil in intent and prosecution because they target not the criminal use of firearms but the firearms themselves which are utterly blameless and those legitimate non-criminals who happen to be interested in them and like shooting. David. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:17:07 -0600 (CST) From: David M Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #775 >> During the War in Afghanistan the National Post ran a story about >> mountain villages near the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. Small family >> businesses manufactured and retailed a wide variety of small arms. >> >> A cottage industry, whole families manufacture, including on request >> any small arms: pistols, rifles, submachine and machine guns, current >> or past standard military issue. These shops were common and a >> significant part of the local economy. Indeed. It is one of my great regrets that though I have been to Afghanistan and Pakistan several times in the late sixties and seventies I never did get to Darra the centre of arms making industry in the North West Frontier Province and I drove through the Khyber Pass on two separate occasions too. Also don't forget that in the heyday of British gunmaking not all guns were produced in big factories. Gun making was a huge cottage industry in Britain with thousands upon thousands engaged in making detail parts for guns often in home workshops principally centred around Birmingham and the South. In these PC days such things are not spoken of much but never forget that the Greatness of Britain (so sadly a thing of the past) owed very much to its engineering genius. The British could build or make anything and we excelled at making guns. David. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:18:34 -0600 (CST) From: paul chicoine Subject: Re: Where can a gun-owner turn for support ?? >> It's not a political action group, or anything more than a forum for >> shooters. >> >> But it is there. >> >> Brad Browne ** Brad wrote this about Gunnutz. Well Brad right you are, gunnutz is not a political action group. The CFD is a email list concerned with politics. Gunnutz has a politics section but you really can't compare the two. To keep up to date with what the latest media releases have to say or to read what Garry B. has uncovered or to see what RFCers have had printed in the press then CFD is the place to be. To discuss this that and the other thing gunnutz is a good resource. I am member of both and one complements the other. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:20:15 -0600 (CST) From: paul chicoine Subject: Re: Letter: SUN RATIONAL AND FAIR ON FIREARMS CONTROL my letter submitted, not yet published to the Winnipeg Sun As a Canadian nationalist I am disappointed with Lex Winram's letter and the regionalism exhibited by the Sun. Divide and conquer has been a valid tactic in war since the beginning of time. The never ending issue of that stupid fiasco known as the Firearms Act is a war between common sense citizens and the federal Liberals and their politically correct gun grabbing hacks. People from coast to coast to coast of this country actively oppose the Firearms Act. These actions manifest themselves by public protest, letters to newspapers, letters to members of Parliament, meetings with Members of Parliament, the list goes on. There is a unity here born of the oppression of law abiding citizens, firearms owners and the rape of the public purse. There is more at risk than firearm ownership. This is an attempt at un-mandated social re-engineering . The very nature of our national identity is tied to the vast wilderness which occupies so much of the Canadian land mass. It is part of us, part of our concept and understanding of freedom . There can not be a division between true wilderness and firearms. They are a fundamental component of each other. This is not the time to play into the federalist fold and create divisions along regional lines. It is the time to actively accept all Canadians who, as a unified citizenry, willingly labour to overcome this fiasco and restore common sense to public policy. Take the time, from wherever you may be, and write the Prime Minister, tell him that Canadians will not tolerate the Firearms Act fiasco. Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract : All Rights Reserved : Without Prejudice __________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:43:42 -0600 (CST) From: Rod Regier Subject: Canada Customs and gun parts You'll be happy to know that Canada Customs and Revenue Agency (CCRA) is Diligently protecting Canadians from possible illegal shipments Of gun parts. During the pre-Christmas rush, they managed to find the time and resources to open And review my two small shipments from Brownells. (Of course, it *is* possible they simply didn't want to guess at the Tariff item category based on the description.) One shipment contained a firing pin protrusion gage, a shotgun barrel/magazine clamp And an aftermarket front sight for a restricted pistol. Brownells descriptions: + Special gunsmith tools + shooting accessories + gun parts The single most expensive line item was the clamp. Classified by CCRA as 9305100090 - pistols - other parts and accessories The other shipment contained a spare AR15 firing pin, two aftermarket front sights For restricted pistols, and 3 aftermarket tubular magazine followers for Shotguns. Brownells descriptions: + Plastic 870/1100 follower + Gun parts + Gun parts The single most expensive line items was the sights. Classified by CCRA as 9305100090 pistols - other parts and accessories Don't you feel safer now? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:12:14 -0600 (CST) From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: re: Ruger Automatics > In the current "The Complete Book of the 1911" published by 'Guns & Ammo' > Magazine, serving police officer and gun writer Massad Ayoob states that > his department issues the Ruger .45 ACP P90. I don't know if this the same > gun as the "Ruger Mk 2" being mentioned on the Digest. To me that is my > bull barrelled Ruger .22lr. Todd, your ruger is a MkII as you said. The 1911 grip-like is 22/45. The P90 is a .45 ACP. They are two completely different guns. Check the picture in the attachment to see the difference. The only .22 1911 grip-like that is worth the effort and I really like is the "High Standard Military 107". You will not find a used one for under $500. It is the only .22 used by the military for face to face assassinations. Yanni Take your boaters exam online at www.yannismarine.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:13:49 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Thank You This note is to thank you for your interesting and upbeat piece about Cowboy Action Shooting (Chronicle Herald Travel Section - 27 December, 2003). It is both refreshing and heartening to see a major newspaper publish a positive article about the shooting sports. Unfortunately it is too often the tiny minority of criminal abuses of firearms that make the news while the huge and varied world of responsible recreational shooting goes unnoticed by the media and the public at large. Thanks once again! - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Sherbrooke, NS My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca My Bio: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/mikeack.htm SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:14:40 -0600 (CST) From: "Hayes Holdings" Subject: Poll: Gun Safety http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2003/guns/index.htm Gun Safety Should guns be brought under the control of the Consumer Product Safety Commission, so that safety standards can be enforced? Yes 32.17% No 67.83% Some of the comments to the poll are amusing. I liked the bits about the "safe" gun going off every time your neighbor picks up his cordless phone and "Ted Kennedy's car killing more people than my gun" - ------------------------------- Jason Hayes - Principal Hayes Holdings Consulting hh@hayz.ws / www.hayz.ws Blog: www.hayz.ws/blog ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:15:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Chris Gilmore" Subject: Poor Brits.... I was watching Sniper Challenge on TV. The Brits were having a very bad time because they were not allowed to bring their own ammo into the US. Trying to learn the new ammo was very frustrating for them. They gave it a good try though. I think it was US first and Canada second. CG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:18:36 -0600 (CST) From: "Aubrey Morris" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #775 David, Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca There was an article in National Geographic, I'm guessing Feb. 1968, which documented this well. The article is illustrated by a photo of a 12 year old boy, sitting in front of a large vise and filing some object, presumably a gun part. The shopkeeper (dirt floor stall) farmed out all the parts to various people, whole families took part, and when all the finished parts were returned, he fitted and assembled them. Apparently skilled collectors couldn't tell one of these working replicas from the real thing. It's a fascinating story. Aubrey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:22:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Hayes Holdings" Subject: RE: China accepts the value of property: >> China accepts the value of property: One of the last bastions of >> Communist ideology takes one more step away from Marx and Engels This is definitely an encouraging development in Chinese policy and law. As Friedman noted in various writings (like "Capitalism and Freedom") the recognition of economic rights is often the forerunner of, and is likely to encourage, the recognition of political freedoms. It is also somewhat embarrassing that Canada (an ostensibly "free" country) cannot bring itself to allow similar protections for property. That said one must still take word of Chinese recognition of property rights with a grain of salt, as the Chinese government still routinely imprisons, tortures, and kills Chinese Christians for the "crimes" of having a church group meet in their house or sharing their faith with others. If the Chinese government can charge these Christians for "subverting the Chinese government and socialist order" simply because they hold church services in their homes, one can hardly claim that the Chinese have a proper recognition of property rights (one's person and freedom to choose how they will carry out their life is, after all, their most important property). So recognition of property rights is a good beginning, but there is still a long way for the Chinese government to go. - ---------------------------- Jason Hayes - Principal Hayes Holdings Consulting hh@hayz.ws / www.hayz.ws Blog: www.hayz.ws/blog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:50:22 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Home built Phil, His belief is that there can be no genocide when all citizens have the means of building an effective weapon for urban close quarters defense. The machine pistol is such a weapon. If an invading army (or for that matter a domestic police force) were to be met with massive armed resistance, door to door, person by person, they could not hope to prevail in a genocidal campaign. History has repeatedly shown this (and its converse) to be true. Armed and ready civilians are the nation's best defense against tyranny from within or from abroad. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Sherbrooke, NS Secretary, St. Mary's Shooters Association Sherbrooke, NS My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca My Bio: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/mikeack.htm SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #779 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:moderator@hitchen.org List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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