Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, April 26 2009 Volume 13 : Number 234 In this issue: Registering cars vs guns Israeli security w/ pistols drive off pirate attack ... FA s.12(6) possibility See: Veale v. Law Society of Alberta Globe & Mail - Police ethics adviser quits over sponsors Re: MP Jim Abbott weighs in on Senate long-gun bill RE: Breaking News - Brass Recycling Personal firearm permit Montague trust fund you dont have five years Quick shooting with a 12 Ga. it is the truth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:48:57 -0700 From: "Barry Glasgow" Subject: Registering cars vs guns Sent: April 26, 2009 12:44 PM To: Winnipeg Sun Cc: paul.turenne@sunmedia.ca Subject: Registering cars vs guns Sun writer, Paul Turenne claims that the "gun registration system is similar to vehicle registration. " This is a common misconception bandied about by the anti-gun lobby. Cars registration numbers are plainly visible=A0to help police keep track of vehicles out in public - which is not the case for guns. Cars are also registered for insurance purposes, to help deter theft (though it's largely ineffective at this) and to help pay for road infrastructure. Gun registration does not deter or solve theft, serves no insurance purpose, does not prevent crime and, as far as I'm aware, none of the revenue goes into gun range improvement. In short, it's a huge waste of time and tax dollars. Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:19:59 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: Israeli security w/ pistols drive off pirate attack ... ... on 1500 passenger cruise ship Before booking a cruise ship trip ask if they have an armed Israeli security team? As the pirates were already trying to land a boarding ladder the passengers would be safer if the guards had something with a little more reach than pistols. This attack occurred 500 miles off the Somalia coast. At this rate they'll be off the coast of Newfoundland in a couple of years. If the pirates ever take over a ship with 1500 people being held as hostages the pressure on governments to find a longer term solution would become a cause celebre in the news media. Here I bet most MSN will ignore this story as they disapprove of non-state employees possessing arms. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517955,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:16:13 -0600 From: Richard Fritze Subject: FA s.12(6) possibility See: Veale v. Law Society of Alberta The failure to grandfather those affected by the change who had already commenced studies creates a prejudice disproportionate to the objectives of the change. I have not read this - tripped across it while researching something else. It looks like it bears checking out. Veale v. Law Society of Alberta [2002] 4 WWR 696, 89 CRR (2d) 68 (Alta QB) RICHARD A. FRITZE Barrister, Solicitor & Notary "Riding Shotgun for You" 3A, 2250 Gaetz Avenue Red Deer, Alberta T4R 1W5 403 343 2506 bus. 403 348 5212 fax 1 877 79 4GUNS toll-free www.fritze.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Globe & Mail - Police ethics adviser quits over sponsors [An older article, but contains info on CGI I hadn't read before. BNM] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090408.wtaser08/BNStor= y/National/home?cid=3Dal_gam_mostview Police ethics adviser quits over sponsors Concerns over role of companies like Taser International in funding lavish = conferences were rebuffed, he says CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD From Wednesday's Globe and Mail April 8, 2009 at 3:57 AM EDT The technical adviser to the ethics committee of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has resigned over corporate sponsorship - including that of Taser International - of the group's annual conference. John Jones, an expert on police ethics who has advised the committee for three years, quit Thursday after the committee's efforts to stop the practice was rebuffed by the board of directors. "I said in that case, I can't remain a member," a saddened Dr. Jones, the author of Reputable Conduct: Ethical Issues in Policing and Corrections, told The Globe and Mail in a phone interview yesterday from his Ottawa home. " [Such sponsorship] doesn't pass the smell test." The CACP is composed of police chiefs and senior police executives from across Canada and represents most of the country's 220-plus forces. Dr. Jones and the members of the ethics committee were in Montreal in August for two days of meetings around the CACP's annual conference when they learned about Taser's sponsorship and that of others, including a joint Bell Mobility-CGI-Group Techna donation of $115,000, which went toward the purchase of 1,000 tickets at $215 each to a Celine Dion concert on Aug. 25. Each registered CACP delegate received one ticket as part of his $595 registration package; if his spouse was also registered for the spouses' program, she or he received another. Virtually all meals were also sponsored. The ethics members raised the sponsorship issue with the CACP executive committee in mid-conference - "expressed our surprise and dismay" is how the genteel Dr. Jones put it - but later followed up with a formal request for the committee co-chairs to speak to the full board of directors. That meeting happened in November, and by December the CACP's executive director, Peter Cuthbert, replied by memo on behalf of the board, basically thanking the committee members for their concerns, but repeating that the board was satisfied the association was abiding by its sponsorship guidelines. It was at the committee's first meeting of the new year last week in Ottawa that Mr. Cuthbert's memo was read aloud, prompting Dr. Jones to walk away from his voluntary position. While he said he was told by senior members of the committee that Taser gave $200,000 to the 2008 conference, Mr. Cuthbert is adamant the manufacturers of the controversial "conducted energy weapons," as the CACP prefers to call them, contributed only $25,000. But he also said that over the past three years, Taser has kicked in a total of $75,000 for conference sponsorship. Mr. Cuthbert was insistent there is nothing wrong with the sponsorship practice, and said that part of the association's job is to bring to the attention of the chiefs "the products and tools that are available to a police service." He then suggested that Taser was only one maker of "conducted energy weapons," but, when pressed, admitted he knew of no other and said, "I guess Taser is the only name out there." According to Mr. Cuthbert, the total corporate sponsorship of last year's conference - by, among others, Power Corporation, the Canadian Bankers Association, Loto-Qu=E9bec, Microsoft, Motorola and the RCMP, ironic given that it means the Mounties shared the platform with the very product whose use has brought the force into such disrepute in the Robert Dziekanski incident - topped $500,000. The RCMP sponsors only the professional development part of the conference program. One of Mr. Cuthbert's defences for the association accepting sponsorships is the CACP does "no buying, no endorsement, no promotion" of any products, including sponsors', and makes no "binding recommendations." But in fact, just six weeks ago the CACP held a press conference in Ottawa with the Canadian Police Association to announce what they called "the police position on Conducted Energy Weapons (CEWs)" and issued both a position document and a press release. The groups said they were acting out of concern that "inaccurate and incomplete" media reporting about the weapons may have led to public misunderstanding and in effect gave CEWs their blessing. In January, Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino, a CACP member, spoke at an association workshop on CEWs and gave the weapon an even more ringing endorsement, and denounced the "irresponsible journalism" surrounding the issue. Mr. Fantino was at least more direct: he called a spade a spade and used both terms, CEWs and tasers, to describe the weapon. When Mr. Cuthbert was asked if it wouldn't have been better for the CACP to have publicly praised tasers with clean hands, he disagreed, and said, "Other than that, I tell you, with the board, it was not an issue ... the board was very, very comfortable with this." But Dr. Jones told The Globe that most of the ethics committee members had concerns about the sponsorships, not just Taser's, which is why it sent committee co-chairs, RCMP Assistant Commissioner Sandra Conlin, her force's ethics adviser, and Edmonton Deputy Chief Norm Lipinski, to the board meeting. That, he said, was a measure of the committee's concern. Mr. Conlin referred The Globe to Mr. Lipinski, saying he was the ethics committee spokesman. He was out of town and didn't return The Globe's call. Dr. Jones, who at 66 has spent several decades of his career lecturing and consulting about ethical conduct, particularly in policing, also recently resigned as an adviser to the International Association of Chiefs of Police. He rued how the CACP conferences have become increasingly "gaudy" affairs, with each host city trying to outdo the other, with members expecting bigger and better freebies. Indeed, Mr. Cuthbert's own figures - he said it now costs between $800,000 and $1-million to hold such conferences - back up Dr. Jones' perception. Asked why the chiefs and senior police executives don't just finance their own conferences, Dr. Jones replied, "That's what we'd like." He said there was "a shocking disconnect" between the lavish conferences for senior police and their increasing demands upon their rank-and-file that they refuse even a free coffee from the local doughnut store. "People now want their leaders to walk the talk," he said. cblatchford@globeandmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:09:45 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: MP Jim Abbott weighs in on Senate long-gun bill And who the heck is this lightweight CPC MP to take it upon himself to 're-frame' the renaming of C-68 from the Firearms Act to the long-gun registry? Is this 'official' party speak? > Revelstoke Times Review - April 13, 2009 > Jim Abbott weighs in on Senate long-gun bill > By Brandon Adams - Revelstoke Times Review > > PHOTO - Kootenay-Columbia MP Jim Abbott expresses his opposition to > Bill C-68, popularly known as the long-gun registry. Abbott is > supporting a senate private members bill which he says is an effort > to scrap the long-gun registry. Photo contributed by Jim Abbott > http://www.bclocalnews.com/kootenay_rockies/revelstoketimesreview > /news/42933032.html > > In an interview with the Times Review last week, Kootenay-Columbia MP Jim > Abbott weighed in on the long-gun registry and a current bill before the > Senate which would effectively end the controversial program. "The most > important thing," explained Abbott in a phone interview, "is to get the > long-gun registry repealed." Repealing the long-gun registry has been an > important goal for Conservatives like Abbott, who see the program as > inefficient and ineffective. Two points: I just love to see the CPCers get egg all over their face with 'repeal' when the word 'amend' (which is really all the gov't's actually offering) is a much softer psychological term, less inclined to arouse the citizenry. And two, 'repeal' when it will be replaced by 'another' half-hidden registry operated by the gendarmes? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:43:17 -0700 From: "Jim Pook" Subject: RE: Breaking News - Brass Recycling Day late, dollar short. From: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248 STATEMENT FROM NRA CHIEF LOBBYIST CHRIS W. COX Military Surplus Cartridge Case Issue Resolved Wednesday, March 18, 2009 Yesterday morning, the Department of Defense informed NRA-ILA that fired military small arms cartridge cases are once again eligible for sale, following a temporary suspension in such sales instituted last week. NRA-ILA began discussions with DoD shortly after the suspension took effect, and we were assured from the beginning that efforts were underway to resolve the issue favorably. Yesterday afternoon, DoD additionally confirmed the lifting of the suspension to pro-Second Amendment United States Senators Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Jon Tester (D-Mont.), who sent the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) a joint letter vigorously opposing the suspension, on the grounds that it had "an impact on small businesses who sell reloaded ammunition utilizing these fired casings, and upon individual gun owners who purchase spent military brass at considerable cost savings for their personal use." Everyone who would have been impacted by the suspension, had it become permanent, owes thanks to Senator Baucus for his leadereship on this issue, as well as to Sen. Tester and U.S. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.), who also weighed in strongly on behalf of gun owners and the suppliers from whom they obtain ammunition reloaded with surplus military brass. In announcing that the suspension has been lifted, DoD also made clear that no cartridge cases that, in the absence of the suspension, would have been sold for reloading purposes were destroyed while the suspension was in effect. Such cases were instead protected by DoD during the suspension, and are again eligible for sale. With ammunition currently in short supply, that was welcome news, to be sure. DLA also put to rest various theories and rumors that were circulated on the internet, concerning the reason for the suspension. As DLA explained to Senators Baucus and Tester, and to NRA-ILA, DoD officials responsible for the demilitarization of military property temporarily halted the release of the cartridge cases last week, pending review of a policy change issued last year by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which, in the interest of national security, halted the sale of items within a broad category of government property including, but not limited to, surplus small arms cartridge cases. To make cartridge cases eligible for sale once again, DoD demilitarization officials verified that the cases could be appropriately placed in a category of government property allowing for their release for use within the United States, and then executed the recategorization. Whereas during the brief suspension, fired cartridge cases would have been releaseable only if the purchaser crushed or smelted them, now the cases may be sold as before, intact and reloadable. DoD also assured NRA-ILA that companies previously authorized to purchase cartridge cases under Trade Security Controls need no further vetting at this time, and are eligible to resume purchasing cases under the policy adopted yesterday. In sum, a problem that could have had serious repercussions for the remanufactured ammunition industry and the countless gun owners who support it, appears to have been resolved quickly. Dear MSSA Friends, I just received a phone call from the office of U.S. Senator Tester of Montana to inform me that at 5:15 (EST) today a letter cosigned by Senator Tester (D-MT) and Senator Baucus (D-MT) was faxed to the Department of Defense asking DoD to reverse its new policy requiring destruction of fired military cartridge brass. At 5:30, I am told, Tester's office received a fax back from DoD saying that the brass destruction policy IS reversed. Others report to me that they are already seeing evidence of this on the Websites of entities that liquidate surplus DoD commodities. Our thanks go out to Senator Tester and Senator Baucus, and their staff, for getting on this problem promptly and making the reversal happen Staff for Tester and Baucus promise they will get me the documentation for this reversal tomorrow morning. I'll forward that when I get it. Best wishes, Gary Marbut, president Montana Shooting Sports Association http://www.mtssa.org author, Gun Laws of Montana http://www.mtpublish.com http://www.georgia-arms.com/ Dear Loyal Customers, Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms Originally Posted By Epic_Ed: .... The facts as I know them, which come directly from candid discussions with my CEO, indicate the following: - - Prior to 11/2008, Demil B items required no mutilation for sale to the public. That policy changed in November, but several exceptions were granted. Expended munitions brass was one of those given a waiver. - - Enter the new administration. Since Demil B category items had been given a broad, general label as "national security sensitive" someone above the DRMS (likely in the DLA) reviewed the policy and immediately went with a CYA policy and yanked all exemptions. No thoughts or considerations were given to the implications of this policy change, but this directive was issued to DOD Surplus effective immediately last week. - - Sh** storm blows up as a result. In particular, the letters, phone calls, and emails to our legislators, the media, and anyone else who would listen caused this policy to be review post haste. - - As of this morning our company was informed that expended munitions brass will now be reclassified as Demil Q -- which requires no mutilation unless sold to a foreign country. There you have it. The policy change was simply the result of some n00b administrator attempting to close a perceived "national security" loophole and brass got caught up in the snare. There was no political motivation behind the policy change, but it is good that people like us were suspicious, got involved, and helped bring about a resolution. Ed Jim Pook Jim's Fishing Charters Box 326, Tahsis, BC V0P 1X0 1-888-617-3474 - Toll Free 250-934-7675 - Local 250-934-6222 - Fax www.JimsFishing.com jim@jimsfishing.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:47:12 -0600 From: "Barry Snow" Subject: Personal firearm permit > > THE WINNIPEG SUN - APRIL 26, 2009 > Personal firearm permit to stand By PAUL TURENNE > http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/canada/2009/04/26/9249906-sun.html > > There are currently two bills in Ottawa that are meant to scrap the gun > registry, but neither proposes to stop licensing individuals. > > The gun registration system is similar to vehicle registration. Just as > all > vehicles must be registered, all firearms must be registered too, while > gun > owners must take a course on responsible use and pass background checks to > possess or use a gun, just as drivers must hold a licence. "We think > licensing serves a valid social policy purpose," said Vic Toews, > Manitoba's > senior cabinet minister. "Those who are qualified and trained are not a > danger." And yet you and your bureaucrats will make a criminal of anyone who has their license expire for whatever reason. Even though they have proven they are not a danger, as you say. Illness, extended stay out of country and bureaucratic inadequacy are all ways that your license can expire in spite of best intentions to ATTEMPT to abide by this Draconian law. Your so called amnesties are not an attempt to bring the non-compliant into the fold but rather an extention for you and your lackeys to complete paper work. An amnesty should be giving ME forgivness for some transgression, NOT forgiving yourself for incompetence. Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:59:21 -0400 From: "ross" Subject: Montague trust fund It is pleasing to know there is a proper trust fund set up and administered. Are the funds in it exclusively fior the use of Mr Montague or are all "three" able to avail them selves of funds if approved. What is the criteria to approve the funds if any? The wheel has indeed been invented, we do not want to make mistakes. Can this trust fund be modified or changed so that others may avail themselves of the funds that come in. Existing funds for Montague would not form part of the shooters defence fund. as they were donated for that specific cause. So how do we get it moving in the right direction ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:02:01 -0400 From: "ross" Subject: you dont have five years Mod Note: IMHO, C-301 is a step forward, Al. It does two things that are required: put in a sunset clause that will kill C-68 when the AG gets her (maybe his) hands on it again in 5 years, and get rid of the ATT's. BUZ The government fiddles and dibbles while we allow them to think about changes. In the mean time they are working overtime to render our property useless and illegal. We dont have five years folks. Get the heads out of sand into reality of daylight. They are still screwing us. wake up. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:25:17 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Quick shooting with a 12 Ga. How's this for a backup? From the streets of Tronna and Vancouver to backwoods trails teeming with pissed-off old black and other bar's. Beretta Extrema2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8p-xIs76RA&feature=related Beretta Xtrema 2 Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWoW3fw0IY AA12 Automatic Shotgun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhstuvzMiB0&feature=related ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:21:34 -0400 From: "ross" Subject: it is the truth Montague, Pierre, Ed. The three muskateers. We as shooters have behaved abominaly in that we are not muskateers. All for one and one for all. We have been All for me and nothing for you. We have been selfish, while these three have stood up to take the bullets for us. We have much to lose, jobs houses... so they have as well. In fact more. They stand to lose their liberty and freedom which no man surrenders voluntarily without a fight. This is the fight. Yep mistakes were made. now behind us. The government prosecutors are playing the parts of slippery eels, and will do anything and everything to obfuscate, deny, vexate the goings on. They will delay, and make expensive so the three musketeers will end up guilty because they were broke. Imagine not being able to afford a lawyer to fight your case because you dont have the money. Could you stand in front of a judge and defend yourself. Some could, but they are few and far between. Look at a different perspective the knowledge gained by these three amigos is invaluable, priceless. It can be used again and again and again by others to fight against a justice system that seems to have gone amok, against Police that decide what your rights will be rather than abide by our charter, by politicians who want to ingratiate themselves to voting blocks, rather than do what is right, just and moral. So our money needs to go somewhere and it needs a boat load of it. These three are fighting an uphill battle which cannot be won without their surrender. This battled can only be won when the crown persecutors have managed to crush them. What then do we have.......nothing? This is our Boston tea party. It tests those of good faith , and law abiding nature to stand up and say together as one voice, enough is enough. You step on me at your own peril. Justice will prevail, but justice is costly. What will your children think of you if you let someone else stand in your place at trial and take the verdict which is meant for you. I dont like certain aspects of the cases, but not every case is perfect nor is every crown persecutor right. Resolve good and gentle readers that we as firearms owners will speak , nay roar with one loud voice. No conflicts of interest because we are all shooter and firearms owners, and we are all being treated like second class citizens in our own country. Immigrants and refugees have more charter rights than we whose only crime has been to own firearms, having committed no other crime. Louldly ladies and gentlemen, proclaim that enough is enough. From this day forwards an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. The government may have the courts and juddges, but we have right on our side regardless of how it is spun. In the end we may not win, but at least they will know us by our shout... enough is enough. We have committed no crime, yet we are criminalized because of a simple piece of plastic or paper. We are criminalized because our personal property has been misused by real criminals which the Police are loathe to go after because real criminals will shoot back at them. Gun owners are an easy soft target. We are the weak underbelly of society because we are so law abiding. Criminals do not care what Judges police crown persecutors say or The real question is this. Why are we being treated like criminals. I dare any politician to tell me why I am a asecond class citizen in my own country. My Own MP Pierre Poilievre will not defend my charter rights, yet he so bravely champions everyone elses rights from seniors to landowners, and other. Put up where the funds can go to Montague Trust. my case of beer will be on its way. Each and every one of us can do this. If you do not feel the misscarriage of justice thast is being perpetrated, then sit back comfortably and drink your beer. From this day to next you will be servant of the government and you will beg for every privilege they will let you have. If not then shout it out enough is enough. A case of beer is not a large sum. But make it quality beer you give not the cheap stuff. Our property, its continued use and our childrens use of it will depend on what we as firearms owner do here and now. Bow down to the government who seeks to remove our firearms through the Police function, or stand shoulder to shoulder with Montague, Pierre, Ed. Your choice good and gentle readers. What ever choice you make will be the right choice for you. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #234 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)